The money and the Elephant

[DRiddle]

I've been asking for "reasoned practical debate" in recent weeks. You refuse Mr Knacker. Sad times on a once interesting forum.

[akarjl2]

I've been asking for "reasoned practical debate" in recent weeks. You refuse Mr Knacker. Sad times on a once interesting forum.

Actually you have been demanding people declare their views on a range of issues and implying anyone who thinks Brexit is a good idea is really fixated on immigration. As their views appear to be different to yours their views are none of your business and there is no need to debate.

Now if yourself and MK1 want to start a thread and argue the toss between yourselves great go for it.

I ask why we spend money on overseas aid rather than on the needs of UK.

I'm not sure which parties the members of this forum support nor do I care- but some feedback from the political activists hanging out here regarding the issue would be of interest.None of the political parties other than maybe the Tories are addressing the Elephant in the corner of the room....Hubris aka Mr Brexit ignores any requests for clarity.

The views of politically active "independents" (as in you?) are basically irrelevant as they have no more influence on the issue than a "average" voter in fact they probably have even less as they waste a vote on "independents".

So the idea of debating something the politicians are ignoring, here with you as an Independent seems pointless.

For the record I say stop giving it away. Spend it in UK. Charity is a luxury to be handed out when you hav taken care of your own- and it begins at home.

Cue immigration/brexit/1945/british empire failings/Britain is responsible for the wrongs of the world/Bong Eyed Looney comments with associated YouTube videos.

[Inspector Knacker]

I've been asking for "reasoned practical debate" in recent weeks. You refuse Mr Knacker. Sad times on a once interesting forum.

Dear David ,
                   You've been demanding our attention like a teacher with a problematic reception class. You go into a lazy belief you can command our attention and we will obey as we are in the presence of a superior intellect and astonishingly so because you don't know some of the people you are lording it over.
You appear to work on the principle that your a sort of EU Missionary dealing with leavers and therefore a few shiny trinkets should tempt the monkeys down from the trees  of ignorance and then if I can can find the rabid Xenophobic racist who reacts to the word immigration I can denounce them all and declare the board a lost cause.
A reasoned debate with you would be a farce, you'd pull out your I-Spy book of 'Remain or Die Horribly'  and come out with all the old bull and propaganda. You'd concede nothing and claim righteousness as a right.
I'm astounded you haven't tagged on no one wants to debate with you, but crack on. After all you'll be gone on 13th December when the elections over and you filled the board up with nonsense for duration.

P.S. As for sad times on a once interesting forum, does that mean it's only good when you turn up and get your way....?

[fred c]

I've been asking for "reasoned practical debate" in recent weeks. You refuse Mr Knacker. Sad times on a once interesting forum.

You need to read this comment again, you have not be asking for reasonable debate, initially you may have tried to instigate debate but when it became blindly obvious that no one wanted to engage with you on your chosen subject you resorted to demanding debate.

When it was once again blindly obvious that 'no one' was interested in your constant demands to discuss your chosen subject, you still brought it up ad infinitum.

For a clever fella David you seem to be taking an awfully long time in coming round to the conclusion that 'no one' wants to discuss said topic, why is it so desperately important to you to know the opinions of post members on this topic, surely you can enter into discussions with work colleagues or friends over a few pints, you may already be engaged in such discussions, hows that going ?

[Inspector Knacker]

surely you can enter into discussions with work colleagues or friends over a few pints, you may already be engaged in such discussions, hows that going ?

...but that wouldn't clog the board up pre-election. Mind you if you asked your mates the same question that many times you'd be Billy no mates in the Remainers Arms.

[Johnny Bongo]

A debate would be welcome...but when Leave voters on here actually say how they feel with regard to immigration, they will no doubt be subject to cries of 'racist'.  I've said a few things earlier  regarding my 'mixed race family'  but that doesn't mean that I agree with open borders with all and sundry coming here.  Where I live, there is a mix of several different races / cultures and everyone seems to get along fine. We may not always agree with their way of life but we live and let live. I even get along with a staunch LABOUR voter over the road , a very nice man and he has some fascinating stories / experiences to tell.   Whatever happens with Brexit, whenever that will be (or not!), life in Hartlepool will still go on, although some people on either side will think it's the end of the world!   Nuff said!

[DRiddle]

come out with all the old bull and propaganda

Do you mean facts and evidence?

[akarjl2]

come out with all the old bull and propaganda

Do you mean facts and evidence?

Oh dear

[mk1]

You come on to criticise anyone in power and get the maximum return out of the smallest misdemeanours. You set your set yourself up as Judge, Jury and chunterer.
You appear to dislike most Party's, (you can tell the ones you're backing, it's not hard to spot) and appear to love an hatchet job no matter who's in power as they're judged by your uniquely imperious standards sadly.
The boards very own Black Knight of Python fame, incapable of compromise or reasoned practical debate.

I am doing nothing more than continuing what the board had been doing for over a decade.  All political parties got a kicking. Politicians  of all colours were treated with the utmost disrespect and personal abuse was a common tactic. SAB was 'fat-shamed' constantly and everyone was in on the act, everyone.
What has happened is that a politician is now in charge of Hartlepool Council who reflects the political views of the many here who pretended they were apolitical. Suddenly 'the board' became very forgiving about  lies and deception as long as those lies forwarded their political agenda.
I did not change the 'board' changed. I never backed/supported any party and I assume that misconception (polite way of saying lie)is a failing common in those  who hold extreme views- anyone not 100% supportive of their myopic world view is seen as  the rabid polar opposite of their own chosen craziness.

[mk1]

The views of politically active "independents" (as in you?) are basically irrelevant as they have no more influence on the issue than a "average" voter in fact they probably have even less as they waste a vote on "independents".

Independent voters are the key to all elections. Most political parties have a core vote that will vote for them no matter what. Usually this core is not enough to give them power so the whole of  the party effort is directed towards winning over enough independent voters to get them over the winning line. All elections centre of watering down their manifesto from what they would like it to be to a tamer version that will attract enough independents to gain power where they can then  carry out only thier extreme policies and ignore the independents until the next election.Trump is basing his whole electoral a strategy on keeping his base happy and totally ignoring the views of anyone who does not support him. Because of the US Electoral College system this means he can gain power with a minority vote. Trump  makes no bones about pandering to his base ('I love the uneducated') and that seems to be the way the UK is headed. Winner-take-all politics where those in power lie cheat and game the system in favour of themselves and where the supporters of the winning party abandon all principle and defend to the death their right to impose their will because it is 'the voice of the people'.

[Inspector Knacker]

The views of politically active "independents" (as in you?) are basically irrelevant as they have no more influence on the issue than a "average" voter in fact they probably have even less as they waste a vote on "independents".

Independent voters are the key to all elections. Most political parties have a core vote that will vote for them no matter what. Usually this core is not enough to give them power so the whole of  the party effort is directed towards winning over enough independent voters to get them over the winning line. All elections centre of watering down their manifesto from what they would like it to be to a tamer version that will attract enough independents to gain power where they can then  carry out only thier extreme policies and ignore the independents until the next election.Trump is basing his whole electoral a strategy on keeping his base happy and totally ignoring the views of anyone who does not support him. Because of the US Electoral College system this means he can gain power with a minority vote. Trump  makes no bones about pandering to his base ('I love the uneducated') and that seems to be the way the UK is headed. Winner-take-all politics where those in power lie cheat and game the system in favour of themselves and where the supporters of the winning party abandon all principle and defend to the death their right to impose their will because it is 'the voice of the people'.

Briefly you're saying anyone voting for someone you disapprove of is thick.

[Inspector Knacker]

come out with all the old bull and propaganda

Do you mean facts and evidence?

Here we go, 'facts and evidence'. Despite your veneer of reasonableness, you remind me of those who seek the views of all and then bin the views of those that don't coincide with your vision. Your 'facts and evidence'.

[akarjl2]

Winner-take-all politics where those in power lie cheat and game the system in favour of themselves and where the supporters of the winning party abandon all principle and defend to the death their right to impose their will because it is 'the voice of the people'.

So what's new?

The options?

Conservative? At least they will take us out of Europe.

Labour aka the unions? Hell bent on dragging us back to the winter of discontent led by a bunch of 1970s marxists.

Rest of them no chance.

As I said all politicians are self serving sh**e the only choice we have is what smell we can tolerate and for how long.

[DRiddle]

Hell bent on dragging us back to the winter of discontent led by a bunch of 1970s marxists.

You've read that in The Daily Mail haven't you? Have you even read anything by Karl Marx?

I'm not advocating Marxism by the way, but to just throw that around because you've heard it said in sections of the main stream media speaks volumes.

Specifically which aspects of Karl Marx's economic ideas do you feel Corbyn would implement if elected?

[akarjl2]

Hell bent on dragging us back to the winter of discontent led by a bunch of 1970s marxists.

You've read that in The Daily Mail haven't you? Have you even read anything by Karl Marx?

I'm not advocating Marxism by the way, but to just throw that around because you've heard it said in sections of the main stream media speaks volumes.

Specifically which aspects of Karl Marx's economic ideas do you feel Corbyn would implement if elected?

Actually I have and see

https://marxiststudent.com/is-jeremy-corbyn-a-marxist/

Even if the rich could be made to pay the taxes that Corbyn proposes, it would not be nearly enough to even reverse the cuts of the last nine years. Nor would it stop capitalists from shutting down factories or going bust; a phenomenon rooted in the global crisis of capitalism.

However, if Corbyn is to be elected prime minister and fully carry out a programme of ending austerity, nationalising significant parts of the economy and implementing progressive reforms to benefit the working class, he will inevitably face the revolutionary consequences of trying to do so. Either he will have to go all the way, and mobilise the working class to take power out of the hands of the capitalists, or he will have to backtrack, and submit to their power.

Well intentioned left reformist leaders like Alexis Tsipras to François Hollande are clear examples of the question of reform or revolution. Both of these 'socialist' leaders capitulated to the demands of capitalism whilst trying to implement their programme to end austerity. The same question will be posed to Jeremy Corbyn. Our tasks as Marxists must be to send a clear message to break with capitalism, and carry out the socialist transformation of society.

Even if he is not a classic Marxist his policies will lead the whole country into their arms.....

John Mcdonnell previously identified himself as a marxist but now will neither confirm or deny - what a surprise ?

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/iain-dale-pushes-john-mcdonnell-marxist/

Iain Dale asked: "But you don't self identify as a Marxist any longer?"

McDonnell replied: "Well, I keep saying I'm almost trying to rehabilitate the reading of Marx in this country."

Iain replied: Surely, if you believe in the basic tenets of Marxism, you shouldn't be ashamed to say 'yes, I am a Marxist'?"

McDonnell replied: "Well, I think that then doesn't portray the breadth of my understanding, because my understanding is that I'm a socialist, and that contains an element of an understanding of Marxist analysis of capitalism, of course.

Either way Labour would bend over for the unions and heyho the winter of discontent 2020.