In or out?

[Hartlepudlion]

I'm surprised no-one hasn't started a debate on Scotland's referendum so here goes.

On a personal note I would like to see them go but if they do I think that not only will Scotland suffer greatly but the economic fallout for England, Wales and Northern Ireland  will be such that we will all be thrown back into a serious recession probably depression. On that one point I would urge Scotland to vote NO to Independence.

I offer the following list (not in any particular order) feel free to add more.

PROS
The fact that 4million Scots will not be able to stop 60million in England and Wales from enjoying one hour of extra daylight at the end of the day by changing to CET.

No more Scottish MP's voting on purely English matters.

The ending of the Barnett Formula. Perhaps this advantage given to the Scots could be spent on the people in the North of England instead.

The re-introduction of English as a nation and nationality. Currently no official forms recognise English as an ethnic origin unlike the acceptance of Welsh, Scots and Irish and a multitude of other ethnicities.

The new UK would be less influential and thus could stop being a World player and can start to look after the people in the new UK rather than our politicians playing the big 'I am' on the World stage.


CONS
Westminster would lose much of its influence in World politics and matters. I guess that this could go under PROS as well if it means Westminster looking inwards and the politicians start putting our people first. Unlikely though.

The credibility that over 300 years of stability and unity will be lost and the trust given to our institutions will be seriously eroded. Particularly to the financial sector and the Bank of England which could mean we all become penniless overnight and then what would we all do? No money to pay benefits, pensions let alone jobs. THIS IS PROBABLY THE MAIN REASON THE SCOTS SHOULD VOTE NO TO INDEPENDENCE.


That will do for now.

[mk1]

It isn't the end of the world and  if the Scots leave everyone will manage. What is does show is the dangers of 'Nationalism'. The  somplistic belief people born one side of a line drawn on a map are 'superior/cleverer/work harder/special' and anyone born 10 feet the other side of it lacks any of those virtues. The greatest danger the world faces is the mindless patriot looking to start a fight to prove how much he 'loves' his country. A pox on the lot of them.

[mk1]

MK1, when the day ever dawns where you actually address the topic being posed..............

My words are my words.   I regret I will not react to your missives in anything approaching a manner you consider appropriate. As you are an ethusiastic supporter of a  deluded flag-waving loony nationalist sect  I never expected intelligent discourse anyway.

[Hartlepudlion]

Forgetting the spat between the other two posters.

I think that the issue is more localised. How is Independence for Scotland going to affect England?

As I previously said, both the YES and NO decision will be bad for England. Reading the papers it seems that this will be the case. All three main parties have promised greater powers to the Scots including keeping the Barnett formula. This will have to be paid for and the people who will suffer most are those in the regions, particularly in the North.

I doubt your statement MK1 and would point that the main stress of my argument in economic and not nationalistic. We have already seen the run on the pound and the fall in the stock exchange. If this continues we shall all be worse of and the present age of austerity will get worse and continue longer. It took us over 10yrs to recover from Labour's induced falls in the early fifties (1951?). Our credit rating will fall and the cost of lending, both personal and Government, will go up.

But, eh, let's be optimistic. Nothing will change and mk1 will be able to live in his Labour utopia not caring who will pay for it.

[mk1]

But, eh, let's be optimistic. Nothing will change and mk1 will be able to live in his Labour utopia not caring who will pay for it.

Labour Utopia? Got to be better than the current Tory dystopian nightmare.
Are you another right-wing flag-waving fruitcake?
Everyone pays some form of tax. Even the poorest members of society. The  belief that some people contribute nothing (i.e them) whilst others pay for everything(i.e 'us') is a divide and rule tactic.

Things change all the time. So the rump UK becomes poorer? If it stops the bulding of the idiotic dick-waving aircraft carriers so much the better. I  also look forward to easier (for us in the NE) tab and beer runs to Scotland!

[Stevef]

I'm not sure if it really matters that much if they decide to leave, I think most people would still wish them the best.

What I found interesting was the debate itself. It seems that the SNP have no idea what it takes to be an independent country, or if they do, they don't want it. I've come to the conclusion that the whole debate has been nothing more than a complete sham.

The whole question of what an independent Scotland would mean in practise has never been answered. Whenever questions have been asked the response appears to be 'It doesn't matter because when we are independent we can do whatever we want. It will be great! '

It reminded me of when as a kid I would get my pocket money, then go to the sweet shop and take my pick of what ever took my fancy at the time. A great way to spend pocket money but as a way of deciding the political future and security of a country of over five million people, it leaves a lot to be desired.

Nothing highlighted the " It will be great, just wait and see" style of the SNP's argument than the look of shock and indignation on the face of Alex Salmond when he realised that on a vote for independence the UK would not be willing to share the pound.

Key to the independence of any sovereign state is the necessity to have and to control its own currency for the benefit of its citizens. Any country that does not have complete control of their currency can never be independent. Obviously the fact that an independent Scotland would by definition mean a United Kingdom independent from Scotland had not been considered.

Even more puzzling was the response that this was nothing to worry about as an independent Scotland would still be able to keep the pound, either through a negotiated monetary union, or in the same way as some third world countries use the American dollar. It was at this point that I began to wonder if the SNP were serious about independence.

Monetary union requires one of two things, Political union (obviously not on the SNP's menu), or political and economic subservience, where monetary policy is decided based on the performance of another countries economy. If anyone wants to know how badly that can go wrong, think Greece, Spain or Italy. As for running the entire economy of a newly independent country using what would then be a foreign currency, without a treaty; I think the people of an independent Scotland would have higher expectations.

If the SNP don't envision an independent Scotland with its own currency, the only other alternative I could think of would be a rapid entry into the EU and the adoption of the Euro. Now I am no UKIP supporter but the idea of Scotland declaring independence from a remote, detached and unrepresentative government in the UK entering to an economic, political and sovereign alliance with Brussels did and still has me scratching my head.