Illegal & disgraceful

[grim reaper]

I am absolutely appalled at the Jewish response to the 3 missing youths, subsequently found dead.
Now whilst THAT is a terrible crime, the response to the families of the 2 Palestinian SUSPECTS was scandalous and breaks many international laws, including the Geneva Convention!
What gave the Israeli army to right to raid the two homes of the SUSPECTS in the middle of the night, turf out men, women & children and then blow up the two homes?
I have no doubt whatsoever that there are some on here that will say it was deserved and that the Palestinians shouldn't launch rockets into Israel etc. etc.

In actual fact, most of the rockets are fired into Palestinian land; land illegally taken over by the Jewish settlers over many, many years (in violation of international law).

Put it this way, I wonder what the apologists would say if our army had gone into the London homes of the 2 Africans that butchered Lee Rigby and turfed out their families and then blew up the 2 homes?
It just would not happen in a civilised country. Israel, with the secure backing of the U.S. is not civilised.

Even when its own people speak out against the atrocities committed by the politicians and army, they are ostracised.
Read articles by Gideon Levy regarding the state of Israel's illegal acts and murder of Palestinians.

The situation over there reminds me of the film 'Soldier Blue', based on the true accounts of the subjugation of the Sioux (and other) tribes in North America. Murdered and starved into submission and forced onto scrub-land reservations. Whole native American nations were wiped out and millions perished in poverty and hunger.
Exactly what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people in the Middle-East.
And we wonder why we have the Islamic world against us.

[grim reaper]

Kip; this subject, like politics generally and football, could go on forever.
What is A fact is that British politicians helped create the very sad situation in the Middle East back in 47/48.
Carving up the Middle East to suit their (and American) interest.
If you look at it from a macro viewpoint, see how 'we' gathered as one when the donkeys running the council decided to give land and facilities to 'outsiders'-- travellers.
The whole town was as one because of the imposition of those people upon us.
Now magnify that situation to the Palestinian position.

Israel is in direct contravention of the Geneva Convention and International Humanitarian Law. Paragraph 6 of article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states that "An occupying power shall not deport, or transfer parts of its own civilian population into territory it occupies".

ISRAEL CONTRAVENES THAT AND OTHER INTERNATIONAL LAWS.

Palestinian farmers turfed off land they have cultivated for centuries, so that the Jewish settlers from all over the world can come and live in 'the promised land' for 'the chosen people'.
Yes it is wrong for the various groups to form rocket attacks on land once owned by their fathers and fore fathers but if Israel stopped their incessant subjugation of the Palestinian people and theft of land (which even many, many right minded Israeli's want stopped), who knows what the outcome could be?
Going back to the travellers, just imagine they did settle in Hart. Then more arrived and continued to arrive until house prices in the area fell and they took over Hart, Bishop Cuthbert, Throston Grange Estate and then built a 12 foot high wall around 'their' land.
A rather silly scenario I agree but in many respects exactly what has happened in Palestine.
Israel can't keep accepting Jews from throughout the world and continue to force the indigenous population into smaller and smaller 'reservations'.

However, this question is bigger than my limited intellect so I will refrain from entering into a protracted dialogue with you.
I hope, one day, BOTH sides will see sense and realise there are no winners when resorting to war.
Stop the settlements and GIVE PEACE A CHANCE.

[Mican]

Having just read Kipperdips post on "Democratic Israel" I have to say the mind boggles, from 1938 to 1948 the Jews were terrorists in Palestine, to such an extent that they tried to form an alliance with Italy and Germany (work that one out) to fight against Britain.  After the war they were responsible for the killing and wounding of scores of British civilians, soldiers and policemen.  Aided and abetted by the US and France they formed the new State of Israel, since then they have broken every International law and stealing land to build more and more settlements once again aided by the US.   Is it any wonder their are problems in that area, as you say "It may have escaped you but keeping your citizens from harm is the primary duty of EVERY country"

[grim reaper]

Spot on, Mican.
Just looking at the news today at the bombing of Gaza from the air and the sea makes my stomach churn.
Over 1.300 Palestinian men, women and children killed and thousands mores maimed by the Israeli bombardment over the last couple of months.
Israeli deaths in that time---45.

The IRA bombed Belfast, Armagh, Co. Antrim and many other places in Northern Ireland. They bombed many places in Britain, including rocket attacks on Downing Street.
We knew where Gerry and Martin and the IRA hierarchy  lived, so why didn't we simply send our bomber aircraft into Derry/Antrim and blow their houses and family to smithereens?
Because it is against the law and totally uncivillised! 

If Israel can pinpoint the 'rocket firers' homes with such accuracy, why didn't they send in Shayetet 13 to lift the bombers and put them on trial?
Why the necessity to kill women & children in the process? 

If you look at the map of the Middle-East and see how the Jews have taken over Palestinian land for years, it is them that are pushing the Palestinians closer and closer 'into the sea'.

It is the Palestinians that are being wiped out through the persistent hegemony, loss of access to work, medicines and freedom of movement.

Israel needs to go back to the borders it was handed in 1948 and maybe, just maybe, the insane killing might stop. 

[veggismiennicht]

Grim reaper who taught the americans how to treat our native americans ops the Engkish they sent over there deportees landless rabble etc  called it the colonies  quote history remember the GREAT BRITISH EMPIRE
noticed you startedoff with the term isreali but to save typing started using JEWS  ETC NOT ALL JEWS ARE ISREALI  as not all hartlepudlians are monkeyhangers

[grim reaper]

Veg; my last words on this subject:
If I was around at the time of the subjugation of the indigenous natives of 'America' I would have been voicing my disgust at THEIR treatment.
This isn't about 'historical' events, it is about the illegal treatment of the people of Palestine.
The nomenclature used (Israeli/Jews) has no ulterior meaning or significance.

International law and civillised behavior is being broken when there are other means to take out the people behind the rockets into Israel.
The Americans managed to get all the way into Abbotabad and take out Bin Laden, so it can be done.
The Palestinians have got to have more of their own farmland back and only then will we have a basis for talks on living together.
Why should they have to barely exist on a 'reservation'?

[Mican]

Quote by kipperdip:  "Unlike Mican and Mr Veg who have managed to take all relevance out of the reason for this discussion by talking about "The British Empire", "The native Americans" and so on - absolutely irrelevant to the matter in hand.  Keep it relevant guys and good communications will be the winner."

Now tell me where I have talked about the British Empire etc.  Your fondness for Israel is almost the same as your hatred of the EU.  You keep going on about terrorists etc. but you fail to understand that Israel was founded on the back of terrorism, the same terrorists who kidnapped, tortured and murdered two British army sergeants among others.  Israel has said they are not bothered about international opinion and will continue to kill innocent women and children, that is relevant.  Democracy my a**e.

[Mican]

While I agree in principle with your comments on democracy, I find your stance on Israel to be questionable, as I said earlier the State of Israel was founded on terrorism and they are now condemning the Palestinians as terrorists, depending on what side of the fence you are on, "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter".
I may be wrong but the way Israel has behaved over the years has created the situation and are now creating another "Holocaust" this time the destruction of another race of people.

[grim reaper]

Finally, the world is starting to wake up to the savage brutality being meted out to the men, women and children of Palestine. 
The inhumane butchery, the demolition of homes, businesses, mosques, water plants, power plants etc. carried out in full view of the world.

Only now, after the death of almost 2000 and 10,000 with horrific injuries is the world starting to condemn the barbaric destruction of Palestine and its population.
France is now stating 'war crimes' have been carried out and America is demanding a cessation to the bombing from the air, land and sea.

Of course people will blame Hamas for their rocket attacks, calling them 'terrorists', as Israel is keen to call them.
As someone has already stated, one man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist.
I remember the Zionist militant underground terror group,the Irgun.
They carried out stealth attacks on British soldiers and officials for years in the Middle East, employing mortar bombs and grenades to fire on police stations, businesses and, infamously, the King David Hotel.
That attack murdered 91 people of various nationalities and injured 50.
THEY were the 'terrorists' in those days, as THEY were fighting for what THEY believed was THEIR land (the Biblical 'Promised Land' for the 'Chosen People').

At one stage, the later to be Israeli premier, Menachem Begin, was a 'terrorist' leader, with a price on his head. The British Govt. wanted him, dead or alive.

As with almost all conflicts, a political solution had to be found and the state of Israel was founded, alongside an area of land for the Palestinians.
The Arabs were initially incensed by the imposition but, eventually, saw the positive trade off in jobs and infrastructure of the area.
Arab and Jews worked side by side for years.

Then the Jews of the world started to descend on the 'Promised Land' in their tens of thousands. More land was required and homes to be built.
Israel, supported every inch of the way by America, started to push Palestinian farmers from their land and build kibbutz and settlements.
The aggressive land grab continues to this day, hence the terrorists of yore are now classed as the 'good guys' and those fighting for their own land are classed as 'terrorists'.
America backs the Israeli's all the way (via the CIA & NSA organisations) with billions of dollars. One of the main reasons being (apart from the large Jewish lobby in the Senate) is it keeps a 'friendly' foothold in the Middle East for them, so that they always have access to the oilfields, should the need arise.

Netanyahu and his cohorts must face trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity and America must face sanctions for their covert backing of the slaughter.

[mk1]

One FACT remains, Israel is a Democratic state, the only Democratic state in the entire Middle East, and Hamas is a terrorist organisation pledged to bring about Israel's extinction.

FACT.
HAMAS is a democraticaly elected Government voted in by a universal mandate.

Please get your facts right before making an ar*se of yourself.

However if one wants to see double standards note the West  backing the latest coup by Egyptian Generals that ousted the democraticaly elected government. It seems the West only wants 'democracy' that suits it's  interests. Vote for the wrong party and the 'West' will  plot your downfall. The war in Ukraine is a direct result of the West plotting with and financing ultra-right Nazi opposition to the  legitimate government.   

[Mican]

Yes, there is truth in saying that Israel was born out of strife and elements of terrorism, (Irgun , Stern Gang) but this was opposed by more level headed elements such as Hagganah who pursued a more reasoned course.
That was then - this is now.

So you think that jewish terrorism of the 1940's is OK?

I spotted a short letter in today's Daily Mail (7 August) from a Mr John Wallace of Surrey which is one of the most succinct summaries of the present situation I have ever seen and really encapsulates the situation.....
"If Hamas stopped fighting there would be no war.  If Israel stopped fighting there would be no Israel".

Just to add another way of looking at things "If Israel keep fighting, there will be no Palestinian land left."

This is a conflict that has existed for centuries, it has often been made worse by Western, well intentioned interference.

This "conflict" has only been going since Israel became a state.

To see the almost universal attack on Israel by the world's political elite's and media is an obscenity which is difficult to fathom.

Almost 2000 civilians, men, women and children killed, buildings demolished, UN safe areas attacked, and you think that Israel should not be condemned,  words fail me.  Do you think the "almost universal attack" on Russian involvement over the downing of the Malaysian airplane (though not yet proved) is also "an obscenity which is difficult to fathom."  Or is this deserved?

[Hartlepudlion]

As for Israel defending their own borders, they ARE NOT. They are defending the occupied territories  taken in the Six Days War. This is internationally illegal and has not been sanctioned by the UN. Israel is still displacing Palestinians and replacing them with Jewish settlers, not yet Israelis,  despite the fact that it is illegal in UN and International laws. Israel should go back to its legal 1948 Borders and let the Palestinians create their own state in their own lands.
I see a striking resemblance to what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians as the SS did to the Jews. Only difference is the concentration camps are now called refugee camps and the gas chambers don't exist. Although a slow death in the refugee camps does.
Israel a democratic state? I understand that Israeli Arabs/Palestinians are not allowed a vote. 

[grim reaper]

Hartlepudlion/Mican;  You're wasting your time.
There are people on here I won't even respond to; I was accused of being against 'Mooslems' and yet I support them wholeheartedly;
I am accused of being against 'Asians' and yet I have said/written/uttered not one word against them.
That's the trouble with these 'keyboard warriors', they love to have a go at people but never stop to actually THINK about what is actually being written.

I am down as a 'Ukipper' and yet I voted for D. Riddle. Doh. Wrong again.

The Middle East conflict is complex,yet it is my conviction that if Israel stopped taking Palestinian land for their 'settlers', a lot of the conflict could be dealt with.

You move into MY garden pal, and you won't know what hit you.
That, in essence, is a microcosm of the Palestinian issue.
The Israeli's have been using live rounds against stone throwing youths for years. They now respond to small time rockets, which their 'shield' copes with, by turning air, land and sea heavy artillery onto UN declared safe areas.

This is ALL about land grab and the Israeli's won't be happy until the Gaza strip is no more and the whole area becomes Israel.
As a Likud spokesman said on TV this week; "We can not allow a state of Palestine".
No mention of Hamas, simply Palestine.
I think that statement let the cat out of the bag.