William Hague is to announce that he is launching a comprehensive audit of how E.U. membership affects British citizens. The point of this audit, according to W.H., is that there are many people out there, who have a far better idea than the Governmentof how the E.U. affects their everyday lives. In other words he hasn't a clue how much this country is now controlled by the E.U.
William Hague is asking for information not giving it. Surely the government of the day should have that information at hand and not have to ask ordinary citizens for it . Would you accept that as something reasonable to expect ,Perseus?
William Hague probably does have what he considers enough information but if he offered it as a guide then it would be viewed as biased and criticised as a result - so he's asking for a third-party review which seems a perfectly legitimate route to me.
Perseus ,I think that you will find that U.K.I.P. ,and others , have been telling the government for years how the E.U. is impacting on the lives of everyone in this country. The trouble is successive governments have not listened or if they have they have wrung their hands and said that there is nothing that we can do about it. Hague's initiative is welcome but a little late in the day.
For anyone interested in Hague's proposal I suggest you log onto the conservative home website and read the many comments already made.
Perseus , in my original post did I say that Hague's initiative wasn't welcome?
Quote from: perseus on July 13, 2012, 08: AM
If the goal of this site is ultimately to become an alternative news site to the hartlepool mail, it won't be helped by you constantly chirping away about the EU.
It's bloody tedious, as I've said previously.
The only explanation that I can think of for it being allowed so repetitively is that the admin are part of the UKIP mob and are trying to get the party message to people via a site that masquerades as being about local issues.
I would like to make a couple of points to D.K. and Perseus, if you find a thread tedious then don't read it. There have been a number of threads which I have ignored because either the topic doesn't interest me or I know that the contributor will post a load of nonsense. The other point is that implementation of E.U. directives cost Hartlepool B.C. a substantial amount of money every year. In other words the council tax payer foots the bill. Is that local enough for you?
D.K. To suggest that admin. are a part of U.K.I.P. is laughable. On numerous occassions S.Latimer has indicated his opposition to the aims of U.K.I.P. Admin. should be applauded for allowing free speech and not suppreessing it.
Quote from: kipperdip on July 12, 2012, 02: PM
The simple truth is that governments know the answers but are determined that YOU the electorate do not get to find out the simple truth.
That truth being we spend billiions of pounds, both directly and indirectly to belong to this voracious, undemocratic institution and receive simply zero benefits.
The simple truth: - The EU is the world's largest and most liberalised economic bloc, giving British businesses access to a huge free trade area, boosting jobs and growth at home, attracting investment in the UK and opening up new business opportunities around the world.
Over 50% of British trade is with EU countries, worth £450 billion a year, and 3.5 million British jobs are dependent upon our trade within the EU - that's 10% of all British jobs.
The UK receives £350bn a year in Foreign Direct Investment from other EU countries and over the last 10 years, over 600 companies have chosen to locate their European headquarters in the UK.
The EU is a failed system,
Tony Blair was once asked what are the benefits of membership of the E.U.? His reply was that the benefits were there for all to see. No other explanation. What Vincent has given us are a number of reasons, not all of them accurate, why Britain should be a member of the Common Market . This is what the the British people accepted in the 1975 referendum.
What Vincent , and many other people , do not seem to realise is that the E.U. is a completely different beast to the E.E.C. It is a political union and many of the directives which come from Brussels have got nothing at all to do with trade. When the E.E.C. was morphed into the E.U. the British people were denied any referendum by John Major. It was from that date that any real opposition to the E.U. can be traced.
Quote from: kipperdip on July 13, 2012, 05: PM
Farage also stressed the fact (still the case now) that the EU relies more on our trade than we do on their's.
Can you give the detail so we can see how the likes of Germany, France Spain and Italy 'rely' on our goods?
The flag waving my country right or wrong patriots are the problem in Europe.
One of my favourite politicians summed it up nicely when he said that the nostalgia for the days of 'The Empire' has resulted the UK rushing 'hither and thither' containing terrorism and in peacekeeping roles clinging on the coat tails of the United States.
He said this delusion could only be described with terms derived from psychiatry because the underlying position (that the UK was a Global power) had little contact with reality!
He recommended we should ditch the outdated global military commitments and stressed that Britain was a
European power.
Wise words indeed.
Quote from: kipperdip on July 13, 2012, 05: PM
Farage demolished him by quoting the 'Rotterdam effect' and the vital fact that all trade is protected by the WTO and the EU could not stop the trade that exists if we were to leave the EU.
Typical scaremongering. Trade would not cease but it would get more expensive for the UK. Goods made within the EU would be cheaper.
And I find it risable to slight Kinnock whilst ignoring bully boy Farage and his 'talk over everyone' and 'shout down the opposition' debating style.
Farage has all the finesse of a Badgers unwiped ar*se and he claims quite a lot of expenses for someone saying he is
against the system!
See the following for a UKIP MEP making a complete and utter fool of himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJoxUdTG0ak&feature=share
We should stop the OAP bus passes and winter allowance and give it to the euro MPs they are much more deserving.
If there ever comes a time when there is a referendum on our membership of the E.U. the pro E.U. camp will play the scaremongering game . They will claim that 3 million British jobs will be at risk if we leave the E.U. Maybe someone could explain why that should be case.
We should also look at the other side of the argument. If we left the E.U. how many non-British E.U. jobs would be at risk? If there is to be a divorce then it is in all parties interest for it to be a harmonious one.
I think you will find the rest of the EU are not exactly shivering in fear at the thought of the UK leaving. Cameron has no chance at all or renegotiation our 'terms' because the others are not going to budge an inch. It is a case of live by the rules or 'bugger off mate'.
This may be music to the ears of the little Englanders harking back to the days of the empire but if we do leave we will then have to be even more supine to American Foriegn policy. Our Army is (and has been for decades)rented out to the USA and we slavishly follow their every adventure so we can claim we 'punch above our weight'. This translates as 'we are carried everywhere by the USA to keep up the illusion we are a world power'.
Get real and remember the bankers and billionares who run the Tory Party will never let us leave the EU. There is too much money at stake for them to even contemplate such a move.
Still waiting for the details of how the rest of the EU needs us more than we need them.................
Quote from: kipperdip on July 14, 2012, 01: PM
"50% of British trade is with the EU". - NO IT IS NOT
Incorrect.
YES IT ISMost of our trade is connected to the EU countries..
Remember anything more than 50% is 'most'
There is a graphic here showing where all the UK exports went.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/feb/24/uk-trade-exports-imports#
My quick calculataion shows that Canada, India and Australia combined take less of our exports than Ireland or even Belgium!
Know nowt about Lenin, goggled it for about 10mins and read some of his stuff but you can translate any of it any which way you want.
Hauge's audit will make interesting reading but no doubt what ever the result all the people who want us out will keep bleating on and on and on and on
Love John Lennon by the way
Mk 1, I am sure that you will agree, it is disgracful that our exporters appear to be ignoring the huge potential of the emerging markets and seem to be concentrating on the stagnant market of the E.U. There is a big wide world out there and we should be involved with it, not inwardly looking .
Vincent if there is ever a referendum on our membership of the E.U. I, for one, would accept the verdict of the people. If the electorate voted to stay in the E.U. I would not ask for another referendum, unlike the E.U. which when the people give an answer which they don't like then they impose a second referendum on the country concerned. Eg Ireland, France ,Holland and Denmark have all had to have re-runs of referendum which initially gave the E.U. an answer which it did not want.
Just to remind people what and why Ireland had a second run at it: -
Only one member state, the Ireland, intended to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon through a referendum.
Ireland - 53.2% against (12 June 2008)
Since the vote by the Republic of Ireland on the Lisbon Treaty, the European Commission has stated that the Treaty would not force Ireland to change its view on issues such as abortion. The Irish voted again on the Lisbon Treaty on 2 October 2009. The vote was 67.1% in favour of the treaty.
Ireland - 67.1% in favour (2 October 2009)
Some have criticised the decision to hold a second Irish vote for a couple of reasons. Main opposition in the European Union comes from the United Kingdom Independence Party who argue the Irish public were ignored over their original vote and were being forced to vote again. UKIP also states that the concessions made to Ireland in relation to the Lisbon Treaty "are not worth the paper they are on and have no legal standing".
Others have argued that as Ireland has been given a guarantee that certain issues such as abortion will not be affected by the Treaty of Lisbon, the Irish people should vote again on the Lisbon Treaty with the concessions in mind, and that, given that every other Member State had approved the treaty, it was not unreasonable to ask the single country that rejected it to reconsider, especially in light of the guarantees offered.
Interesting facts and figures, Perseus, but what you did not not mention was that U.K.I.P. received almost 1 million votes in the G.E. of 2010 ,a substantial increase on the 2005 result. In addition Conservative Party analysts concluded that U.K.I.P. cost the Conservatives about 20 seats in the H. of C. At the next G.E. U.K.I.P.'s vote is likely to improve further. That is why we are hearing eurosceptic noises from the Conservatives, because U.K.I.P. have got them worried.
The demand for a referendum is not just coming from U.K.I.P. An online petition received the required 100k signatures and this triggered the debate in the H. of C. You may not want our relationship with the E.U. to be examined but there is a growing groundswell of opinion that does.
On the subject of a cost analysis of our membership of the E.U. several organisations have done such a study, Taxpayers Alliance , Labour Euro-safeguards committeee, Open Europe etc. I am sure that you are capable of looking up their conclusions .
So if we came out of the EU does this mean BMW and Mercedes of Germany would boycott us. :D
Last year Britain had a £52 billion trade deficit with the rest of the E.U.
Perseus I think that my patience with you is about exhausted. Are playing the Devil's Advocate or are you just plain stupid? You stifle proper debate with inane comments. You throw allegations out like confetti at a wedding. Either debate sensibly or don't bother at all. Britain's membership of the E.U. is too serious a subject to be trivialised and needs to be debated until everyone has a clear picture of the pros and cons of membership. Then and only then can we make an informed choice when the referendum eventually takes place.
Perseus ,because of your sheer dislike of U.K.I.P. you are missing the big picture. U.K.I.P. is just one of a number of organisations working towards ,either, withdrawal from the E.U. or a referendum on whether or not we should leave the E.U.
Take ,for example, the People's Pledge organisation. They are a cross party group which organised a referendum in Thurrock on whether Britain should leave the E.U. The turnout was 31%, about the same as the turnout at the last European Parliament elections. The result was a staggering 90% in favour of withdrawal. Now tell me that there is no call for a referendum. The next referendum takes place in Cheadle on August 5th. If a similar result is achieved the government will be under severe pressure to hold a national referendum.
a referendum would sort it but the pro Europe team are affraid of that.
Perseus you are right, the question asked in the Thurrock referendum was whether or not we should have a referendum. It was a genuine mistake on my part and I was not attempting to mislead you. Nevertheless the result was decisive and if replicated over the country would be an unstoppable call for a referendum on our membership of the E.U. You remind me of King Canute except it is the tide of public opinion that you are unable to stop.
Quote from: Ryehill on July 17, 2012, 04: PM
You remind me of King Canute except it is the tide of public opinion that you are unable to stop.
Cnut was trying to show his underlings the limit of his powers.
Popular culture has turned this around and made it (wrongly) an example of his stupidity.
To all the EU supporters, simple question, simple answer please: "why have successive governments promised a referendum on our staying in the EU before reneging on their election promises" No quoting, googling or anything else, just a simple answer.
Quote from: Micksmate on July 17, 2012, 09: PM
To all the EU supporters, simple question, simple answer please: "why have successive governments promised a referendum on our staying in the EU before reneging on their election promises" No quoting, googling or anything else, just a simple answer.
First list the exact promises and where we can check them ............
Sorry my question was too hard for you, List one: "referendum on our staying in the EU" Try looking in the party manifestos. Like i said simple question, simple answer, if you can't give a simple answer please don't bother.
Quote from: Micksmate on July 17, 2012, 09: PM
Sorry my question was too hard for you, List one: "referendum on our staying in the EU" Try looking in the party manifestos. Like i said simple question, simple answer, if you can't give a simple answer please don't bother.
Nice swerve.
Until you support your initial position with checkable references then how can we make a balanced judgement?
I never take anything for granted and until I see the exact 'promise' you refer to then there is no point in a reply.
I am not going to do your research for you and if you have the info post it.
Hope that was not too hard for you.................
Quote from: mk1 on July 17, 2012, 10: PM
Quote from: Micksmate on July 17, 2012, 09: PM
Sorry my question was too hard for you, List one: "referendum on our staying in the EU" Try looking in the party manifestos. Like i said simple question, simple answer, if you can't give a simple answer please don't bother.
Nice swerve.
Nice swerve my a*** like i said simple question simple answer
Until you support your initial position with checkable references then how can we make a balanced judgement?
I never take anything for granted and until I see the exact 'promise' you refer to then there is no point in a reply.
I am not going to do your research for you and if you have the info post it.
Hope that was not too hard for you.................
Try reading the party manifestos, like i said simple question, simple answer, if you can't give an answer go try playing with the traffic, you are boring me.
Quote from: Micksmate on July 17, 2012, 11: PM
Try reading the party manifestos,
Sorry but I lent my bound volume of all the Election Manifestos to my brother and he has promised all his mates a read before I get them back.
Could you be a darling and post the information you (should) have at your fingertips?
Your reluctance to part with the 'facts' bodes ill for the veracity of your opening argument.
We were given a referendum on a Regional Assembly in the N.E. We were given a referendum on A.V. The people of Thurrock have shown that there is demand for a referendum . The question of Britain's membership of the E.U. needs to be sorted once and for all and a referendum is the best way to do it. Why? Because it will be the sole subject under discussion and a proper, open ,debate can take place whereas in a G.E. the parties manifestos try to cover every conceivable topic.
Whilst I am not a great supporter of the EU, what all of you have failed to point out is that it has given us constitutional rights that our own governments have failed to do. Ours is the only Western democracy that hasn't given its people a written constitution incorporating a Bill of Rights. We all have a right to take cases to the European Courts of Justice when we think that our own courts have failed us. The European Bill of Rights is far from perfect but it is better than nothing despite our legal system taking full advantage to line their own pockets.
You need to look no further than the prom between Seaton and Hartlepool to find another example of the EU at work. We wouldn't have had this without EU monies. I have been told that the COFE also received EU grants. Remember a few months ago when many millions of EU grants in this region where not taken up? Why? Because the Labour Government wouldn't allow EU grants to be paid direct to the regions - they wanted to play politics. Result: lost opportunities for regeneration and work schemes. Other countries act and not play politics.
On the question of grants. Look around the towns in our region and it seems Hartlepool is the only town without a major regeneration programme. I wonder why?!
Sorry Micksmate but I had to have a look at the Liberal Democrat Manifesto for this statement: -
"The European Union has evolved signifi cantly since the last public vote
on membership over thirty years ago. Liberal Democrats therefore remain
committed to an in/out referendum the next time a British government signs
up for fundamental change in the relationship between the UK and the EU"
Perseus the following statement is for you: -
"Scrap unfair university tuition fees for all students taking their fi rst
degree, including those studying part-time, saving them over £10,000
each. We have a fi nancially responsible plan to phase fees out over
six years, so that the change is affordable even in these diffi cult
economic times, and without cutting university income. We will
immediately scrap fees for fi nal year students."
Aint it a shame that the Country didnt vote in a Liberal Democrat Government so these promises could be kept
Sorry Micksmate but I had to have a look at the Liberal Democrat Manifesto for this statement: -
"The European Union has evolved signifi cantly since the last public vote
on membership over thirty years ago. Liberal Democrats therefore remain
committed to an in/out referendum the next time a British government signs
up for fundamental change in the relationship between the UK and the EU"
Perseus the following statement is for you: -
"Scrap unfair university tuition fees for all students taking their fi rst
degree, including those studying part-time, saving them over £10,000
each. We have a fi nancially responsible plan to phase fees out over
six years, so that the change is affordable even in these diffi cult
economic times, and without cutting university income. We will
immediately scrap fees for fi nal year students."
Aint it a shame that the Country didnt vote in a Liberal Democrat Government so these promises could be kept
In their 2005 maifesto the Labour party promised a referendum on the EU: Hope you understand that bit? Now to get back to my question (Oh and by the way Perseus i do not belong to UKIP you *****) and to make it easy for you to understand, I require a S.I.M.P.L.E. answer to a S.I.M.P.L.E. question "why have successive governments promised a referendum on our staying in the EU before reneging on their election promises" I am not a member of any party simply someone who would like simple answers to simple questions, if you can't give a simple answer but pretend you are some sort of deep thinker and know the answer to the universe, then try putting your answers on the cub/scout forum they may be impressed, personally you bore me. Remember keep it S.I.M.P.L.E, if you can get your heads out of your backsides long enough.
Dear me touched a nerve there Perseus, I also voted for the Liberal Democrats but for many, many reasons not one single issue.
Yes I do blame the Tories for demanding the increase but I also blame Labour for leaving the national kitty empty and the Country nearly bankrupt.
It seems crazy to blame the Liberal Democrats when it was Labour (Tony Blair) who brought the fee system in after John Majors government first proposed them and Gordon Browns government (and Mandelson) who setup the Brown Commission to review the level of fees that should be paid and made sure they would not make any recommendations until after the G.E.
The Liberal Democrats promised to get rid of the fees over 6 years if they had won the election but they did not win and had to put UK Ltd. best interests first
It seems unreasonable of you to make a lifelong decision but thats your perogative
We will see how Nick Clegg gets on in three years time but I think the NUS will more than alienate the public by ranting and raving about some issue which has very little relavance to the majority of people in the UK
Quote from: Micksmate on July 18, 2012, 12: PM
In their 2005 maifesto the Labour party promised a referendum on the EU: Hope you understand that bit?
If it was so S.I.M.P.L.E. you would have linked/cut and pasted the claim in question.
You have not.
That says everything.
Quote from: Micksmate on July 18, 2012, 12: PM
I require a S.I.M.P.L.E. answer to a S.I.M.P.L.E. question "why have successive governments promised a referendum on our staying in the EU before reneging on their election promises"
You have yet to establish that 'successive Governments' have done any such thing.
Prove they have and we can move forward.
Quote from: mk1 on July 18, 2012, 12: PM
Quote from: Micksmate on July 18, 2012, 12: PM
In their 2005 maifesto the Labour party promised a referendum on the EU: Hope you understand that bit?
If it was so S.I.M.P.L.E. you would have linked/cut and pasted the claim in question.
You have not.
That says everything.
Quote from: Micksmate on July 18, 2012, 12: PM
I require a S.I.M.P.L.E. answer to a S.I.M.P.L.E. question "why have successive governments promised a referendum on our staying in the EU before reneging on their election promises"
You have yet to establish that 'successive Governments' have done any such thing.
Prove they have and we can move forward.
Like I said if you have nothing positive to say try the cub/scout forum but in your case perhaps the brownies forum would be better, more up your street. Anyone got a S.I.M.P.L.E. answer please?
Quote from: perseus on July 18, 2012, 01: PM
yawn..... i'll do it in 3 words for you, short ones that you can read, ok? Here we go....
BECAUSE
POLITICIANS
LIE.
Simple enough for you?
Hooray, yippee, yippee, yippee, at last a simple answer to a simple question, not only that but Perseus has agreed that a referendum was agreed but "politicians lie" I correct myself there is life after death, anyone else with a simple answer. Thank you Lord.
The question of how much the N.E. or Hartlepool has received in E.U. grants is easy to answer . It is nothing. Britain is, and always has been, a net contributor to the E.U. so any grants we receive is just getting back our own money.
Perseus, this may suprise you but I don't particularly want a referendum on Britain's position in the E.U. I want a government which is elected on a Eurosceptic platform and on election gives notice of our intention to leave the E.U. Ten years ago that ambition would probably have been laughable but recently there has been a big change of attitude ,mainly in the Conservative Party, but also in the Labour Party.
Quote from: Micksmate on July 18, 2012, 01: PM
Quote from: perseus on July 18, 2012, 01: PM
Hooray, yippee, yippee, yippee, at last a simple answer to a simple question, not only that but Perseus has agreed that a referendum was agreed
Nope he does not say that.
Your capacity to see what you want to see increases by leaps and bounds................
Quote from: mk1 on July 18, 2012, 04: PM
Quote from: Micksmate on July 18, 2012, 01: PM
Quote from: perseus on July 18, 2012, 01: PM
Hooray, yippee, yippee, yippee, at last a simple answer to a simple question, not only that but Perseus has agreed that a referendum was agreed
Nope he does not say that.
Your capacity to see what you want to see increases by leaps and bounds................
The question was: "why have successive governments promised a referendum on our staying in the EU before reneging on their election promises" Perseus replied "Because politicians lie" now anyone with half a brain can see what he meant, also anyone with half a brain knows full well the answer to the question, so if you continue having problems let me know and i will nip down the pound shop and buy you the other half so you can keep up.
He knows full well what we mean and he also knows his claims are bogus. His ego forces him to resort to insult because any other course of action exposes his mistake.
Quote from: perseus on July 18, 2012, 06: PM
Agreed. As I said, I think he's realised he's a little bit out of his depth on here. As are Ryehill and Kipperdip, who, prior to recently had been lording it around this site spouting rubbish and lies for months, possibly years.
Now their spin and lies have been shown to be exactly that. Too many old racists on here in my opinion.
Bit out of my depth, words of wisdom from someone with ONE certificate on his wall, perhaps you would like to peruse mine and see who is out of their depth. I asked a simple question and wanted simple answers, what do we get a pair of EU supporters who don't have an answer and rabbit on, many years ago i voted for the European Common Market which was a good thing, now we have a cash cow which is unregulated and undisiplined not what I or anyone else voted for. As usual anyone who does not care for the EU is classed as a facist, racist, old and any other childish and stupid remark they can think of, I despair for your offspring. Obviously I made a mistake asking for something S.I.M.P.L.E.
Yet one more post where the so called 'promise to hold a referendum' is not referenced.
Is there any reason (other than you made it up) why you can not back your original bluster?
Quote from: mk1 on July 18, 2012, 07: PM
Yet one more post where the so called 'promise to hold a referendum' is not referenced.
Is there any reason (other than you made it up) why you can not back your original bluster?
Answer #68 "the Labour party 2005 maifesto " obviously i am going to have to go to the pound shop, please kep it simple, theres a good dear.
Still no sign of the actual promise from whatever manifesto you say it is from.
Until you post the whole promise then the suspicion is you are cherry picking a part and twisting the meaning.
Quote from: perseus on July 18, 2012, 07: PM
You have literally no idea about my qualifications. Why would i want to come and look at your 25m swimming certificate or whatever on Earth you're going on about?
You don't know how to debate. You're being destroyed. Ssshhhh now old man.
European Politics and Society......(Persues glances at framed document on his office wall). how bright is that, just shows your mentality, keep it S.I.M.P.L.E. there's a good boy
Perseus ,when are you going to realise that this isn't a case of U.K.I.P. versus the E.U.? There are a growing number of people from all walks of life who supported the concept of the E.U. but who are completely disillusioned with the way that it has developed. Unfortunately for them the parties which they supported are stuck in a 70's timewarp and cannot see the damage that the E.U. has done, not only to this country , but to most countries in the E.U.
I am also going to repeat that I made a genuine mistake when I quoted the Thurrock referendum. I made the error of not
checking my sources. When you consider that many of our M.P's admit to voting for the implementation of the Lisbon Treaty without actually reading the document then my mistake was a tiny error in comparison to their massive error of judgement.
More national tedium being peddled on a "Local Issues" board.
I can't work out who is worse, the UKIP loonies or the fools who think that they can change the loonies minds by reasoned debate.
There's probably a good case study for a psychiatrist on this thread alone.
Perseus, why are you determined to ignore a referendum in which 14000 people voted, yet opinion polls, which are used to predict the makeup of a new government, are based on the response to just over a thousand telephone calls?