Lets have a conversation about the standards of education in Hartlepool

[Stig of the Seaton Dump]

DRiddle, that would be true if every school had a perfect mix of children from every social background and if that was the case then there would be no need to target kids on free school meals.

It is not something I worry about greatly but to me it appears as skew as taking away child benefit where one parent earns 60K and allowing another family to keep it when the joint earnings are 100K.

Back to schools ... it doesn't send the right message home when a child comes home and says all the teachers have new iPads and here is a form asking for £5 for a text book.
That sends the message that the schools are about looking after the teachers and not pupils which leads to the parents becoming disengaged.

The relationship the schools have with parents could definitely be improved, the 2x5 minute parental consultation sessions don't build strong enough bridges to help the parents maximise how they can contribute to the child's education. that in turn could make the teaching job easier and the parents support of the child more rewarding. 

[DRiddle]

As I said earlier in the thread, although I'm happy to answer specific questions such as the one by Shane, I don't think it's appropriate for me to comment openly on this topic.

[Stig of the Seaton Dump]

I appreciate your integrity DRiddle ,,,thanks for making me think more about this topic.

It is parental consultation sessions (...what a tedious name) next week for me and I will use the opportunity to raise the point about improving parent engagement. 

[Vincent]

It doesn't really work like that Stig. All children in the school benefit from the extra money, as it's the school overall that benefits, not literally just the poorer children who trigger the additional money. E.g the money can be used for better teachers, extra resources etc. which will benefit everyone.

It's not just school meals that trigger the payment, foster children also qualify for the pupil premium.
OFSTED have a duty to carry out assessments to ensure there is an improvement in the children's education and educational standard so it's a win win for the schools and the kids - another great policy from the LIberal Democrats

[DRiddle]

That's true Vincent. I kept is relatively simple for the purposes of explanation. Looked after childen, as well as the children of some service personnel can also trigger addtional payments. I agree with the policy, I actually think it's a very good idea. However, it does not in anyway balance out the lie which was told about student tuition fees, which is by far the most socially divisive act of education related policy ever. In my opinion. Throwing schools a £900 a year bone per pupil is one thing.... lumbering the same kids helped by the premium with debts that typically will end up in real terms at £60-70,000 over their life time is another.

It's a little bit like... well you know that analogy already right?

[SRMoore]

60k for a degree in Golf Course management or The Beatles does seem steep. One consequence might be that we see more kids take up skilled vocational training, like the ones we have a national shortage of. Electricians, plumbers, engineers and so on.

[Vincent]

That's true Vincent. I kept is relatively simple for the purposes of explanation. Looked after childen, as well as the children of some service personnel can also trigger addtional payments. I agree with the policy, I actually think it's a very good idea. However, it does not in anyway balance out the lie which was told about student tuition fees, which is by far the most socially divisive act of education related policy ever. In my opinion. Throwing schools a £900 a year bone per pupil is one thing.... lumbering the same kids helped by the premium with debts that typically will end up in real terms at £60-70,000 over their life time is another.

It's a little bit like... well you know that analogy already right?

It is not over their lifetime but it is about choice, I am happy to pay my taxes to support the education system but if an adult wants to go to university why should the taxpayer support him / her - choice David choice

[DRiddle]

Multiple conflation flaws are now littered right thoughout this 'debate'. Firstly this one...

60k for a degree in Golf Course management or The Beatles does seem steep. One consequence might be that we see more kids take up skilled vocational training, like the ones we have a national shortage of. Electricians, plumbers, engineers and so on.

I agree that some degrees do not hold any genuine merit. I did not say that they all did. My point was that  financial barriers should not preclude young people and essentially determine their 'life chances'.

Additionally, I fully agree we have a skills shortage in areas such as those you mention Shane. However, the way to address that is to put money into that avenue of education. Not to force people down that pathway by closing the other major door available to them.

There have been some excellent policies which will come into effect in the next 3-5 years or so that will address exactly the issue you highlight (increased participation age, 14-19 reform, colleges being allowed to teach 14 years olds instead of schools etc.) However, none of these should are anything to do with Uni fees.

It is not over their lifetime but it is about choice, I am happy to pay my taxes to support the education system but if an adult wants to go to university why should the taxpayer support him / her - choice David choice

It is essentially a lifetime. How long is a life sentence Jim? 25 years?

A person with no children has their taxes used to fund the education of other people's children. If you're going to go down that line of argument you're going to hit a dead end very quickly.

My point wasn't about the fees initially. It was about the lie. The one Mr Clegg eventually felt he should publicly apologise for. Remember?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUDjRZ30SNo

[SRMoore]

Students DO NOT pay tuition fees up front and only pay them back in installments once earning a decent wage that the education they chose has enabled them to get.
To state that students from not so well off families cannot go to university because of the fees is nonsense and another reason why they are needlessly put off.

[DRiddle]

Students DO NOT pay tuition fees up front and only pay them back in installments once earning a decent wage that the education they chose has enabled them to get.
To state that students from not so well off families cannot go to university because of the fees is nonsense and another reason why they are needlessly put off.

Again, I did not say that they do pay their fees up front. Give me some credit. I work in a situation that helps hundreds of young people access uni year after year. I know all about the barriers of entry and exactly how they work.

Students from not so well off families have to make a decision because they know going to uni will, somewhere down the line, lead to big debt.

Take the hypothetcial example of a female student from a poor background who wants to be a primary school teacher. She has options of course. She could train via college as a hairdresser, incur little or no debt and start earning money at 18 or 19 years of age, but she wants deep down to be a primary school teacher.

She knows she's facing £36,000 worth of tuition fees if she trains as a teacher, as well as a ball park figure of £20,000's worth of debt that she'll incur on living costs over the four years.

That's £56,000 worth of debt with even mentioning interest yet.

Let's suppose she does it, and enters the teaching profession with her debt (which we'll say at this stage is £56,000). She now has herself a job that pays £21,588.

She's 22, has a student debt of £56,000 and a monthly take home pay after tax, national insurance, pension and student loan payments of about £1250.

Had she gone down the hair dressing route, at 22, she'd have no debt, probably have been able to put a few quid by for a deposit on a house further down the line and if she was on £16,000 a year doing her hair dressing she'd be bringing home abour £125 a month LESS than if she'd decided to be a teacher.

Can you not see how some people from certain backgrounds could look at a situation like that and think "Aahh it's not worth it, i'll just train for a job"? This policy is about social engineering and facilitates social division.

I realise you'll say "Well Tony Blair brought it in" and you may well be right. However, I assure you, this policy will do NOTHING for our region. 

[Vincent]

A teacher life - The school I work at is a great school. There is fantastic teaching and learning going on and we have all raised our game. My teaching is better than it has ever been. We are accountable for the success of our students as we have never been before and this can only be a good thing. However, it is a job not my life.

The day begins. In case you might enjoy gradually waking up, taking some quiet time for yourself, thinking about the day to come or, who knows, possibly even talking to and enjoying the company of your colleagues before the daily morning meeting starts, a rolling PowerPoint is displayed for us all to read as a starter activity. Every teacher recognises this as the way to control disillusioned students: occupy their every minute in case they take a breath, look around and realise the pointlessness of it all.

You teach your lessons and let your head be filled with what it should be. The subject you love so much that you knew a job teaching it would be fantastic; the energy and humour of young people, those lovely light bulb moments when something clicks, the unpredictability of it all, a kid thinking they can't do something and then succeeding and the brilliant questions or observations that make your heart sing.

You go to the staffroom looking forward to a chat and a good laugh with some of the great staff you are lucky to work with. Here you will find lists of looked after students, lists of FSM (free school meals) students, lists of students who are not making progress in maths, lists of students who are not making enough progress in English and, hell, even lists of looked after free school meals students who have the audacity to not be making enough progress in maths and English. Some teachers struggle to even recognise who these students are it is so long since they have attended school. You daren't look up above seat height. I feel like a police officer being pursued by a never ending ID parade.

And then you go to a meeting. Meetings are controlled by the minute. Bloated agendas groan with weight. Interjections are waved away and questions have to be asked after the meeting has ended. Heartbeats quicken. Blood pressure rises. People inwardly and, sometimes, outwardly weep. You tune out and desperately try to catch on to the coat tails of the day's successes. They seem like a distant dream.

[Vincent]

Its a hard life David - so tell us, why are the standards of education so bad in Hartlepool (SteveL), oh sorry, your not able to.....

[DRiddle]

I cannot contractually (nor do i deem it ethical or appropriate to) comment on the general standards of education in Hartlepool on a public message forum.

I, (like you i'm assuming?) have signed a contract which includes a detailed page on appropriate use of ICT. This includes speaking publicly in a way which could reflect badly on my place of work. Hence my reluctance to be drawn into a debate on the specific title topic of this thread.

I have answered questions on specific aspects of national educational policy that have been put to me. I have offered my view on tuition fees. I'm comfortable and happy to do that. But anything closely related to SteveL's initial question is off limits to me and rightly so.

[steveL]

The poor performance of St Hild's was one of the first stories we ran on HTH ten years ago and the fact that we did so upset a lot of people at the time. In a way, this sort of reaction was one of the main reasons for the poor performance.

At the time, the GCSE results standard comparison showed that St Hild's at 23% was exactly half of that achieved at English Martyrs at 46% - with no explanation offered. The Mail had covered the results which were all announced on the same day and quoted the then Headmaster of St Hild's as saying how 'satisfied' he was with the results. It was this sort of complacency which prompted us to pick up the issue.

I suppose it's a natural thing for people not to appreciate when their bad performance has a light shone on it and I remember Cllr Rob Cook, one of the school's Governors, throwing a bit of a wobbler over it. We took the view that the constant throughput of pupils meant that it was important that action was taken quickly and that the education of our kids was far too important to play second fiddle to the embarrassment of some adults.

St Hild's is now a school on the mend but, as the Mail write up shows, there's still a long way to go which is a bit disappointing given that its ten years since we first ran that story.

Consider the following extract:

"It also says school governors are now more effective and says they now appreciate how poor the school's results have been in the past and understand their responsibility in monitoring its performance more closely."

The implication here is that there was a time when the School Governors were not effective and did not appreciate how bad the school results had been - something that clearly wasn't accepted when we ran that original article.

Hopefully that situation has now changed but I have the feeling that, if left unmonitored, things will slip back to the original low level of aspiration for the school's pupils. Progress to point B is always dependant on knowing and accepting exactly where point A is first and not pretending that it is somewhere else.

http://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/news/education/school-requires-more-improvement-1-5466804