How will it go, despite everything, you can never tell. The Labour voting electorate would be electing a candidate who actively planned the loss of our hospital services and voted 70+ times against Brexit despite the town voting 70% to leave. A more unelectable candidate I'd find hard to imagine for any voter. Yet that dogmatic, illogical loyalty to the party of the working man/ woman is misplaced. They're now the party of the campus, the 'enlightened' middle class, the latest Islington dinner party trend in political oddities,...... the workers party has gone, the shell of the party is just that. These people have as much idea how the average person lives their lives as I have about the Bulgarian tax system.
The beliefs of their fathers and grandfathers in the party were well placed, but that was then, this is now and I bet they wouldn't touch this party with a barge pole. I fear however, that for a lot of people, voting is an automatic reflex, no real thought involved.
I wouldnt worry about it, the Conservatives will win comfortably.
And then the people on here will have to own their s**t, we all wait with baited breath to see the new sun lit uplands that await....
Quote from: eddy on May 06, 2021, 08: AM
I wouldnt worry about it, the Conservatives will win comfortably.
That remains to be seen, but your defeatist attitude tells a story.
And then the people on here will have to own their s**t, we all wait with baited breath to see the new sun lit uplands that await....
Do remind of the sunlit uplands we experienced during the 60 years we had a succession of Labour MP's for....? We waited with baited breath under Labour for so long we turned blue...and now even the town might.
As for owning their own s**t, your lot never did, no one expected them to, a waste of time, so don't start calling for the responsibility your Party never showed, always someone else's fault. Nowt to do with me Guv, it's them Tories. ......If they didn't exist, you'd have to invent them
I ain't even a Tory, that's the irony.😂
Quote from: eddy on May 06, 2021, 08: AM
the Conservatives will win comfortably.
Hope so
QuoteAnd then the people on here will have to own their s**t
Mmmm.. are you SURE you are not an MK1 clone?
There is no way a failed Stockton MP who shut down A and E then claimed he was going to re open it was EVER going to get my vote - or the vote of anyone in the town with half a brain we would hope.
Makes me glad I never had a Party to tell me how to think. Remember the naive old days when most people voted Labour because they just did. Like all religions they promised a bright future that never seemed to materialise.
Looks like the electorate are taking a divergent path... but much more likely is Labour are galloping down a diverging path from the electorate.
Looks like the voters may decide not to hold on tight to what was yesterday.
Well, the eyes of the media are on Hartlepool. I've just declined a TV interview outside the polling station1
I am seriously considering abstaining completely from voting in this absolute shambles.
I see nobody worthy of my time, effort, and support....
We were going out 6.15 this morning, clearing the bit of frost off the car when 2 cars pull up and disgorge a flock of Labour volunteers (of the under 20 variety) and pointed out by the leader of the pack which houses to target.
What a sign of desperation. Most people have made their minds up on Election Day and putting a leaflet through the door is going to go down a treat if the dog goes berserk and wakes the house up. That would be popular.
Please tell me they weren't knocking on doors, nah, no ones that dumb.
We haven't been visited by Labour canvassers since Barclay came around with the Akers - Belchers . He opened the gate, knocked at the door and as I opened it he grunted something and thrust a pamphlet at me which I declined. He tried again and I asked him to close the gate on the way out.
He legged it over to his betters and they stood together as he pointed the house out. Never seen one since. Result.
Quote from: diSme on May 06, 2021, 02: PM
I am seriously considering abstaining completely from voting in this absolute shambles.
I see nobody worthy of my time, effort, and support....
That's how Labour hang onto power, apathy. Stir things up and see what happens.
Quote from: Inspector Knacker on May 06, 2021, 02: PM
Quote from: diSme on May 06, 2021, 02: PM
I am seriously considering abstaining completely from voting in this absolute shambles.
I see nobody worthy of my time, effort, and support....
That's how Labour hang onto power, apathy. Stir things up and see what happens.
If I do go and vote, it will be only to take votes away from candidates I dislike, not to support candidates that I like.
I'm mulling it over.....
Exactly what I'm doing. I'll vote Tory because personally I cannot forgive Labour for either being so dumb or indifferent to local feeling they chose a candidate involved in the loss of services from the hospital.
Quote from: Inspector Knacker on May 06, 2021, 02: PM
Exactly what I'm doing. I'll vote Tory because personally I cannot forgive Labour for either being so dumb or indifferent to local feeling they chose a candidate involved in the loss of services from the hospital.
Same boat.. same logic. I will NOT support a wannabe who SHOULD be at the frontline of the war on COVID not sniffing after (laughs him self stupid) "safe" seats.
Time to throw a grenade in the mix and see where it gets us,
Fact is, if Super Doc gets elected what's he gonna do, Starmer's Jeeves?.
He'll have no power to do anything at all, just sit on the opposition benches nodding. No access to anything, because he's not in the party in power. Meanwhile back at the ranch he ain't gonna be the most popular person with a fair percentage of the electorate after his hospital antics and anti Brexit voting pattern.
We tried electing a scarecrow and that didn't work out well, now we're considering a political butterfly.
Starmer's Jeeves - too much responsibiity?
Quote from: Inspector Knacker on May 06, 2021, 10: AM
Quote from: eddy on May 06, 2021, 08: AM
I wouldnt worry about it, the Conservatives will win comfortably.
That remains to be seen, but your defeatist attitude tells a story.
And then the people on here will have to own their s**t, we all wait with baited breath to see the new sun lit uplands that await....
Do remind of the sunlit uplands we experienced during the 60 years we had a succession of Labour MP's for....? We waited with baited breath under Labour for so long we turned blue...and now even the town might.
As for owning their own s**t, your lot never did, no one expected them to, a waste of time, so don't start calling for the responsibility your Party never showed, always someone else's fault. Nowt to do with me Guv, it's them Tories. ......If they didn't exist, you'd have to invent them
/quote]
I ain't even a Tory, that's the irony.😂
#
Dont forget we once had a Labour goverment minister as an MP, (he was useless and hopefully he'll be having a meltdown tonight) a Labour prime minister based 15 miles down the road and the North East littered with Labour ministers and MPs......
And for the life of me I cant see even with their combined power what they brought to the area...... Yeah I remember it was fxxk all.
They did close the general hospital though.
Quote from: norfolkngoode on May 06, 2021, 08: PM
Dont forget we once had a Labour goverment minister as an MP, (he was useless and hopefully he'll be having a meltdown tonight) a Labour prime minister based 15 miles down the road and the North East littered with Labour ministers and MPs......
And for the life of me I cant see even with their combined power what they brought to the area...... Yeah I remember it was fxxk all.
They did close the general hospital though.
Ah, the hospital. I remember how they tried to sell the idea to us of taking away services to North Tees to give us a better service. Never could work that one out. But they kept a straight face when they said it.
If Williams loses do you reckon he'll hang about to fight to return services.... nah, me neither.😆
Quote from: Inspector Knacker on May 06, 2021, 09: PM
Quote from: norfolkngoode on May 06, 2021, 08: PM
Dont forget we once had a Labour goverment minister as an MP, (he was useless and hopefully he'll be having a meltdown tonight) a Labour prime minister based 15 miles down the road and the North East littered with Labour ministers and MPs......
And for the life of me I cant see even with their combined power what they brought to the area...... Yeah I remember it was fxxk all.
They did close the general hospital though.
Ah, the hospital. I remember how they tried to sell the idea to us of taking away services to North Tees to give us a better service. Never could work that one out. But they kept a straight face when they said it.
If Williams loses do you reckon he'll hang about to fight to return services.... nah, me neither.😆
Yeah he's yet another Liebour loser....You wont see him for dust.
Or the next 'opportunity'? ...
Let it not be said democracy is dead, or people are unable to change their loyalties. You are correct in my pessimism, its pretty frustrating to see the same ineffective approach be wheeled out again and again. Although this is the fall out of many years of uselessness, I am not going to attempt to defend it because the arguments are pretty compelling
In a weird sort of way I am glad we lost because it may help to lance the boil that had grown, it probably wouldnt though, say what you want about the Torys they are masters of unity and re-invention. Labour are way more concerned with throwing all that went before under a big red bus.
I was being philosophical last night, mulling over the statement that having political loyalty is something that should be avoided, or that you are in someway being controlled or manipulated because you nail your colours to a mast. Surely if everyone took the view of Mr Knacker there would be no party members, no one who would run for council / MP. And by extension wouldnt the whole system fall down or become (even more) full of opportunists ? You need at least some people who are loyal?
I stand by my previous comment, I hope the hallowed pages of the 'Post are as tenacious and vocal holding all our elected representatives to account. This is more what I am baiting my breath about actually
Quote from: eddy on May 07, 2021, 10: AM
Let it not be said democracy is dead, or people are unable to change their loyalties. You are correct in my pessimism, its pretty frustrating to see the same ineffective approach be wheeled out again and again. Although this is the fall out of many years of uselessness, I am not going to attempt to defend it because the arguments are pretty compelling
In a weird sort of way I am glad we lost because it may help to lance the boil that had grown, it probably wouldnt though, say what you want about the Torys they are masters of unity and re-invention. Labour are way more concerned with throwing all that went before under a big red bus.
I was being philosophical last night, mulling over the statement that having political loyalty is something that should be avoided, or that you are in someway being controlled or manipulated because you nail your colours to a mast. Surely if everyone took the view of Mr Knacker there would be no party members, no one who would run for council / MP. And by extension wouldnt the whole system fall down or become (even more) full of opportunists ? You need at least some people who are loyal?
Everyone doesn't take my view, it's my view, I'm not trying to impose it on anyone else. I'd actually like to see party politics excluded from local politics altogether and Councillors reside in the ward they represent.
We do need national political party's, but.... loyalty should not be at the cost of conscience. I hate to see politicians mouthing a party line they and we know is cobblers out of 'loyalty'. Labour failed in some ways yesterday because of the pantomime local politics had become in this town over the past 15 years.
I stand by my previous comment, I hope the hallowed pages of the 'Post are as tenacious and vocal holding all our elected representatives to account. This is more what I am baiting my breath about actually
Once again I have to point out that I will hold ANY party or politician to account, I am not bound to any of them, you assume too much about other people's intentions.... that said I ain't gonna start demanding results after a couple of months as some vested interests will.
Quote from: eddy on May 07, 2021, 10: AM
Let it not be said democracy is dead, or people are unable to change their loyalties. You are correct in my pessimism, its pretty frustrating to see the same ineffective approach be wheeled out again and again. Although this is the fall out of many years of uselessness, I am not going to attempt to defend it because the arguments are pretty compelling
In a weird sort of way I am glad we lost because it may help to lance the boil that had grown, it probably wouldnt though, say what you want about the Torys they are masters of unity and re-invention. Labour are way more concerned with throwing all that went before under a big red bus.
I was being philosophical last night, mulling over the statement that having political loyalty is something that should be avoided, or that you are in someway being controlled or manipulated because you nail your colours to a mast. Surely if everyone took the view of Mr Knacker there would be no party members, no one who would run for council / MP. And by extension wouldnt the whole system fall down or become (even more) full of opportunists ? You need at least some people who are loyal?
I stand by my previous comment, I hope the hallowed pages of the 'Post are as tenacious and vocal holding all our elected representatives to account. This is more what I am baiting my breath about actually
I think you echo the thoughts of many here. Labour forgot about us for years. The Tories have an opportunity to do "Something" for the town they have one shot at it then Brexit/Covid etc will be in the past and next election they will be evaluated and called to account.
I am absolutely convinced Labour crashed and burned because they chose the wrong candidate with a toxic history of being involved in closing A and E then having the cheek to say he would bring it back. The minute they fielded Doctor Dolittle they had no chance no matter WHAT Labour spouted.
It was odd that this was never covered in the national press. The is election was lost as a result of an untrustworthy candidate being proposed.
Update - I am psychic.....
https://order-order.com/2021/05/07/dr-paul-williams-this-was-your-by-election/ (https://order-order.com/2021/05/07/dr-paul-williams-this-was-your-by-election/)
Let's be brutally honest, Labour's defeat is the orphaned offspring of poor research/planning and the 'Dumpling Dictator's' time in the Council chamber.
Hill's time as MP was like having Father Stone's brother elected and Williams choice as replacement was an affront to the electorate with his history.
It's been a while in coming.
In a nutshell = spot on.
Quote from: eddy on May 07, 2021, 10: AM
Let it not be said democracy is dead, or people are unable to change their loyalties. You are correct in my pessimism, its pretty frustrating to see the same ineffective approach be wheeled out again and again. Although this is the fall out of many years of uselessness, I am not going to attempt to defend it because the arguments are pretty compelling
In a weird sort of way I am glad we lost because it may help to lance the boil that had grown, it probably wouldnt though, say what you want about the Torys they are masters of unity and re-invention. Labour are way more concerned with throwing all that went before under a big red bus.
I was being philosophical last night, mulling over the statement that having political loyalty is something that should be avoided, or that you are in someway being controlled or manipulated because you nail your colours to a mast. Surely if everyone took the view of Mr Knacker there would be no party members, no one who would run for council / MP. And by extension wouldnt the whole system fall down or become (even more) full of opportunists ? You need at least some people who are loyal?
I stand by my previous comment, I hope the hallowed pages of the 'Post are as tenacious and vocal holding all our elected representatives to account. This is more what I am baiting my breath about actually
While we may have our political differences, I respect your opinion, you put it across well.
Quote from: Inspector Knacker on May 07, 2021, 12: PM
Let's be brutally honest, Labour's defeat is the orphaned offspring of poor research/planning and the 'Dumpling Dictator's' time in the Council chamber.
Hill's time as MP was like having Father Stone's brother elected and Williams choice as replacement was an affront to the electorate with his history.
It's been a while in coming.
Williams didn't waste any time in going, though ... https://twitter.com/Tony_Diver/status/1390550151094280193?s=20
Well, I'm certainly no tory lover, and I am very dubious about the tory candidate that has been elected, however I am quite pleased that the cretinous doctor did not get in. That would have really boiled my p!ss....
Quote from: Lucy Lass-Tick on May 07, 2021, 02: PM
Quote from: Inspector Knacker on May 07, 2021, 12: PM
Let's be brutally honest, Labour's defeat is the orphaned offspring of poor research/planning and the 'Dumpling Dictator's' time in the Council chamber.
Hill's time as MP was like having Father Stone's brother elected and Williams choice as replacement was an affront to the electorate with his history.
It's been a while in coming.
Williams didn't waste any time in going, though ... https://twitter.com/Tony_Diver/status/1390550151094280193?s=20
29.5 seconds from podium to driving away in red fiesta, surely a record!
I take it he's not going to stay on to fight the seat at the next election😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
A rather interesting article from today's Guardian looks at what may have gone wrong.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/07/obsessed-with-the-flag-labour-recriminations-begin-in-hartlepool
The Labour Party is like a ship where the Captain orders the crew to prepare to leave port but nothing happens. They approach the Captain to ask where they're going to, but the Captain gives them a vague answer. The ship sails off but it just goes around and around in circles with no destination in mind as the Captain still doesn't know where intends to go. The crew become even more dispirited as the ship continues to go round and round and round and round.... everyone gets dizzy and the ship goes nowhere.
I suspect the loyal crew need a new skipper.
A new skipper? Suspect that the job description's already circulating ... albeit on rice paper which can be swallowed should someone be found with it.
The way things are going Starmer may well be replaced by a radical far left nutter pushed by Momentum, It appears that there is a large section of the Liebour party who think they lost the election because they're not left enough!
I don't think it matters who leads them, they are in danger of becoming a middle class, metropolitan, trapped in their London bubble, fringe party, who nobody cares about but you can have a bit of a laugh at!.... A bit like the Lib Dems!
Oh yeah they already are!
They don't see their own weakness and pomposity.... and run for cover when asked awkward questions, the eternally outraged left will act like spiteful children. A party eating itself devoid of political discipline.
Well Cwistopher and and hubby will be looking for new challenges will they not having pillaged and destroyed aaartlepool.....?
Quote from: akarjl2 on May 08, 2021, 05: AM
Well Cwistopher and and hubby will be looking for new challenges will they not having pillaged and destroyed aaartlepool.....?
I suspect their ....'Age of the Buffoon', laid the foundations for the fall of Labour in Hartlepool. How they held onto power so long is one of the great mysteries of life. They didn't just undermine the foundations of local politics, they dug them out and sold the rubble as hardcore.
They were an increasingly obvious failure by the time the first cracks and fissures began to show in their limited ability to run the town. Not one of them had the qualities of an even mediocre 'politician', they were self indulgent, achingly incapable who'd been in power far too long as the vital structures of the town both physical and structural, collapsed under their 'stewardship'. Yet, the Party did nothing to curtail 'Carry on Councillor'.
They survived and held on to their career of outstanding incompetence with the unquestioning, fatalistic obedience of the Labour voter to follow the Party doggedly, their subordination along with their pathological devotion to voting Labour brought them to where Labour in Hartlepool is today. Starmer gets the blame, but it's their legacy.
Hopefully now travel is allowed they will be digging out their Santas little helper suits, loading the convertible up with chocky wocky......stopping off at Belchers Bun shop for an all day breakfast then foocing off to Brighton to do what ( or who) ever they do down their. Does lard ar** still have his pseudo job running that waste of space and time centre?
There needs to be a cleansing of the town clownclil and all the hangers on and wanna bees need to understand the party is over....the trough is empty....off you go and claim benefits or or go get a job.
One of the first things our new CONSERVATIVE MP should be doing is challenging the clowncil about clowncil tax levels here.....
There are (unconfirmed) rumours that they're planning on opening a B & B in Brighton.
They could take some of their old underlings with them, Barclay would make an 'interesting' butler.
On a more national level, it seems like the conservatives have moved into area where Labour typically set the tone. A lot of what Mr Houchin has done (bringing the airport back into public control) is not really the typical neo-lib approach. There are other examples, Homes England funding for new housing for example. This makes it hard for labour to identify where they sit or what their appeal is. I dont really know myself at the moment, simply sitting around waiting for Torys to c**k up probably isnt going to cut it either as a strategy for labour. That said, I dont think the electorate will be as forgiving as they were with labour either, they have already broken the mould once by voting conservative, the precedent is set. it also begs the question, if labour are finished will the conservatives rule in perpetuity un-opposed. Although as a cautionary tale, people said exactly the same things of the conservatives in 1997
For what its worth my main beef with the Torys is public spending cuts / small state mantra, we dont have a court anymore, very few police, under funding of public services, universal credit etc. They have also spent an insane amount of money on stuff in covid that didnt work (Test and trace) and it remains to be seen how much the stench of cronyism may persist around that. I am no hard line socialist but most of the jobs in Hartlepool are public sector based, I dont buy the whole small state thing, you either pay for it by keeping people in jobs like the public sector or you pay for it in crime, prisons, poor health and depravity
This is all of the Dave Cameron era though and the noise coming out at the moment doesnt really match that approach. What will be tricky for them will be balancing public spending with their mantra of low tax / small state. At some point this massive storm created by Covid will need to be paid for somehow. Also moving jobs and investment to the town will mean taking it from somewhere else, to quote Ms May there isnt some magical money tree that can be shook to pay for all this
Whoever was in power would have been landed with a COVID bill they didn't want.
May was as wet as sleeping bag on the fish quay and I class her as in the same clique as Cameron and Osborne. They got into power because Labour was looking tired and Brown was hardly an inspiration to anyone.
I put it that traditional Tories in Westminster didn't want Johnson anywhere near Downing Street but the actions of MP's of both major Party's over Brexit showed them in a light to the public that alienated them. Politicians created the crucible that created the lust for change, and if the vote wasn't split in 2019, then Hill would be History.
I still blame the Council under the dumpling dictator as being a contributing factor in the local result..... it cast a very long shadow.
As I write this the good doctor is being interviewed on what went wrong, on Look North, one sentence explained it all, he stated that ....."Voters didn't know who we were or what we stood for".
Quote from: Inspector Knacker on May 10, 2021, 06: PM
As I write this the good doctor is being interviewed on what went wrong, on Look North, one sentence explained it all, he stated that ....."Voters didn't know who we were or what we stood for".
I actually thought he looked relieved whilst being interviewed as if he is heart was not in it. He should concentrate on medicine, god knows we need every doctor available even at this stage of the pandemic.
Actually it was quiet clear for me he (the candidate) was an immature, wannabe politician who was also a liar and full of s**t. I made a decision not to even consider voting for labour when I did my due diligence regarding their candidate. They handed the town to the tories when they selected him.
He came over as still not in touch with reality, a politician who had a problem understanding politics.
The Labour Party national executive chose him, parachuted him in as 'Mr Presentable' and smugly expected that predictably, the gormless mugs in loyal old Hartlepool would vote for him......oh what a miscalculation.
He may have ticked all the right boxes for the national executive of the Labour Party, but they didn't figure on an awakening of the Hartlepool electorate which to any fool, had been indicated at the 2019 election.
The one manifesto topic the doc presented on national TV was to make Hartlepool great again by spending lots more on education so that 'we' have a super educated workforce to which company's will flock to open businesses......sadly,
1. Such a rosey glow policy would take a couple of decades to bear fruit.
2. Surely if it was applied in Hartlepool it would be being applied nationwide, so no advantage there then.
3. It was presented in such a pressured disjointed way it looked like another vague pie in the sky plan cobbled together on the hoof. One of those policies everyone surely has to approve of, a bit like a manifesto to stop the drowning of kittens in public swimming baths, a bleeding obvious policy you expect to be a the norm, not some exception.
Am gonna flip the narrative on its head, is there anything Labour could have said / promised or fielded as a candidate that would have prevented what happened ?
I have no say over who was selected but it is pretty obvious he wasnt the best choice
Am not being confrontational here or all woe is me, I am curious as to what would be required as its evident the party has less than a clue!
Quote from: eddy on May 11, 2021, 02: PM
Am gonna flip the narrative on its head, is there anything Labour could have said / promised or fielded as a candidate that would have prevented what happened ?
I have no say over who was selected but it is pretty obvious he wasnt the best choice
Am not being confrontational here or all woe is me, I am curious as to what would be required as its evident the party has less than a clue!
No one is saying your being confrontational, relax.
I suspect as I said elsewhere, it was the result of an accumulation of long standing straws that broke the camels back.
I thought the Tories had c**ked up with their choice, but when the Dr's background was revealed, all she had to do was keep a low profile and watch it crash and burn . Blame that one on the Labour National Executive.
The joke the Council became under the Dumpling Dictator and his cabal was beyond parody, as though Vic and Bob had wrote the script. They cast a very long shadow over events from beyond the political grave.
Starmer, ....what can you say, a man without a personality and no policies.
Like all relationships, the tired marriage between Labour and Hartlepool ended when they started to go their separate ways .....and no one noticed.
I suspect a lot more thought on Labour's part as regards research and surveying the constituency may have saved a few blushes if not the seat. An attitude was abroad after the result that rankled with me when certain figures referring to the town as 'their seat', as though we were their serfs in some medieval soap opera, not the attitude to take.
To be fair, this result should have occurred in 2019, it was just delayed.
Its on the Graun, so take with a pinch of salt, but they should make this mandatory listening for all people in labour who are in charge of policy
https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2021/may/12/can-labour-survive-britains-political-realignment-podcast
I genuinely feel moved to get involved, its excruciating watching this car crash of avoidable c**k ups. It may not have changed the outcome this time but its a start
It was the 'perfect storm'.... only trouble was they decided to ignore the weather forecast and set sail for the eye of the storm.
To be fair, it wasn't just Hartlepool that decided it needed a change.
The times are a changing it would appear. It's surprising how 'conservative' with a small 'c', the working man /woman is.
A hero of mine, Ernie Bevan, was to me the symbol of Labour common sense and practicality. What would he have made of this ?