The EU Referendum on Thursday is about getting our democracy back

[Phil UKIP]

This EU referendum is a fundamental choice do we Britain want to be a self-governing democracy or not?

It's about control.

It's about freedom, sovereignty and democracy.

The Choice is between project fear and project hope

The remain campaign represent project fear big businesses, big banks and big politics the political establishment trying to scare everyone into staying in the EU because it suits their own self interest.

We in the Leave campaign represent project hope as we are fighting for the freedom democracy self government and independence of this nation.

The Problems with the EU

It started as a common market no politics but look how it has changed over the years

The EU has;

A flag,

An anthem,

A currency,

A foreign policy,

Massive control over domestic policy areas including home affairs, borders and welfare,

A foreign minister,

A president

An unelected commission that really pulls all the strings

And now they want an EU army a very dangerous step indeed.

It has become a state that's what its creators wanted and all of this has been done by stealth against the will of the people.

The EU ignores the views of the nation state electorates of all member states.

EU CONSTITUTION was rejected by French and the Dutch in Referendums in 2005, but did the EU listen?

No they simply ignored the referendums and rebranded the Constitution as the new Lisbon treaty but kept 98% of the original EU constitution.

The EU ignores the results of referendums and in Ireland's case they forced and bullied them into have another referendum.

For the EU referendums only count if they give the right answer.

This proves how undemocratic the EU is.

European Parliament is the only parliament in the world where it's elected members can't propose legislation, can't repel legislation they can only amend legislation handed down by the unelected EU Commission.

We have unelected EU president

We have unelected Foreign minister

Are we seeing the pattern here?



Euro

The EU pushes ahead with the unsound economics of the Euro that is punishing southern Europe and driving their economies into deeper recessions.

The euro is failing. On top of that, Macedonia, Serbia, Albania, Montenegro and Turkey are joining the EU.

Youth Unemployment in the Euro zone – Greece 51.9%, Spain 45.9%, Portugal 30%, Italy 38.8%, France 24.4%



We were promised we would not be part of Euro bailouts but what happened we ended up having to contribute to Greece's Euro bailout even though we aren't in the Euro currency.



Immigration

We have mass uncontrolled and unlimited immigration with the current migration crisis with millions of people coming into Europe every week and also an open door to 485 million people in the EU thanks to the free movement of people across the EU.

Net migration is currently running at 330,000 a year

Between 1995 and 2015 the number of EU immigrants living in the UK has tripled from 0.9 Million to 3.3 Million



TTIP

TTIP will lead to the privatisation of the NHS by the back door opening up the NHS and public services to transatlantic competition.

ISDM (Investor state dispute settlement) allow companies to sue national governments EU interest not the British interest.

Green peace's Dutch branch released a data leak of confidential documents relating to the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) that confirms this.



Steel

The EU has disgracefully stopped us helping our steel industry with its state invention rules. These issues should be our decisions not the EU's.

EU membership stops the UK blocking cheap Chinese imports and helping with energy costs

Brussels makes it much harder for British steelmakers to do business

The EU's anti-fossil-fuel directives and regulations have driven up energy costs – and heavy industry is paying the price.

"EU interference in our energy market is making it impossible for our industry to compete

We should help our steel industry and give British steel firms a "sustainable future" by lowering their taxes, and cutting their energy bills.

The Prime Minister has engaged in some of the most desperate and pathetic scaremongering in the course of this campaign.

We'll be at war if we leave the EU what a complete ridiculous load of rubbish.

It's not the EU that has kept the peace for the last 70 years it is NATO that has done that.

But there are many other myths and scare tactics that the Remain side put about so let's just look at some of them;



Myths of EU membership

3 million jobs linked to being in the EU – No they are linked to us trading with the EU. We would carry on trading with them if we weren't members.5 million continental jobs are dependent on trade with the UK too. Trade would continue if we weren't in the EU.

If we left we would lose maternity pay – No UK rules are even stronger than EU rules. European rules – 14 weeks, UK rules – 26 weeks

Nissan and Hitachi would leave UK if we left EU – No both have said repeated they would not. And indeed Nissan said if Britain didn't join the Euro over 10 years ago they would leave, we didn't join the Euro Nissan stayed and actually built another plant.

EU gave us equal pay – No the Equal pay act was signed into UK law in 1970 3 years before we joined the EU.

EU has taken on multinational companies – No their are 30,000 lobbyists in Brussels who are they looking out for the big businesses and they will lobby for regulation which they know will drive their smaller competitors out of business.

EU has the largest economy in the world – No the EU is declining year on year. When we joined in 1973 EU members made up 38% of World GDP. It's already under 20% by 2020 it will have dropped to just 15%.

EU Accounts – 21st year in a row that auditors have not signed of the accounts and gave an adverse opinion on the legality and regularity of payments underlying the accounts. The accounts are not properly signed off

EU give money to help the North East – No we pay for it it's our money 55 million every day. If we left we can decide where we spend our money.

If we leave EU British football teams will be kicked out of the champion's league – No Teams from Israel, Norway Russia Switzerland and Turkey all compete and they are not in the EU



Britain is big enough to manage on its own

We are the 5th largest economy in the world

4th Largest Military budget

Founding member of NATO

Permanent seat holders on the United Nations Security Council, G8 and G20

Britain has the world's most spoken language and the best universities in the world

We have links we the common wealth, America, Europe and Asia.



So here are some concrete ways voting Leave will make you better off:

Better public services. Every week, Britain hands over control of 350 million to the EU. That's enough to build over 50 new hospitals a year. If we vote Leave, we'll be able to spend our money on our priorities.
Higher wages. Uncontrolled immigration from the EU has depressed wages, especially in the lowest-paid jobs. If we vote Leave, we'll be able to control immigration, so pay will go up. Even the leader of the Remain campaign admits that.
New jobs. EU red tape costs British businesses £600 million a week. If we vote Leave, we can set our businesses free, creating jobs in the process.
Cheaper energy. EU energy rules have forced Britain to shut power stations and pushed up our bills. If we vote Leave, we can cut regulation, and cut our costs.
Lower prices. EU tariffs make imports from the rest of the world artificially expensive. If we vote Leave, we'll still have access to the European Single Market, but we won't face tariffs, and we'll make new trade deals with non-EU countries. More free trade means lower prices.
Affordable homes. One reason so many young people can't afford to buy a home is the strain uncontrolled immigration from the EU puts on the housing market. If we vote Leave, we'll ease the pressure.
More security. The EU is a failed project. It can't manage its borders, its currency, or its economy. Giving unaccountable Eurocrats so much power over our lives is a huge risk. Voting Leave is the safer option.
We'll all be better off if we vote Leave and take back control.



The Positive case for leaving

We can make our own laws in our own parliament

Make our own trade deals

Control our own borders and our own immigration policy and treat everyone fairly and equally not based on whether you come from one continent or another

Stop British courts being overruled by unaccountable EU Courts

We will be in full control of our own destiny and democracy

There is a fundamental choice in this referendum do we want to take control of our own affairs or not.

I say to people don't vote for project fear which is staying in the EU. Vote for project hope which is coming out of the EU.

In this referendum vote for out and let's get Britain's freedom and independence back.

[mk1]

Britain has the world's most spoken language and the best universities in the world

A simple Google will show you that  Spanish and Chinese is more widely spoken.

And that of the top 20 Universities 5 are UK and 10 USA. The USA is way out in the lead here.
Idiot facts from UKIP idiots.

[mk1]

Norway are now, per capita, one of the richest countries in (the continent of ) Europe.  What is more they are FREE and INDEPENDENT.

Nothing shows how dumb and stupid  the haters are than the lies they tell about Norway. Lets list the  drawbacks for Norway:

Norway has to allow free movement of EU citizens.
Norway has to conform to all EU regulations for goods they export to the EU-In effect EU rules are the rules.

Hear it from the horse's mouth:


As an EEA member, we do not participate in decision-making in Brussels, but we loyally abide by Brussels' decisions. We have incorporated approximately three-quarters of all EU legislative acts into Norwegian legislation – and counting. We have legally secured access to the single market, and we practise the free movement of people, goods, services and capital. Norway is more closely integrated into many aspects of the EU than even some of the EU's members. Our subscription to freedom of movement and our membership of the Schengen area means that Norway has even higher per capita immigration than Britain.

Those campaigning for Britain to leave the EU and chose the Norwegian way can hence correctly claim that a country can retain access to the single market from outside the EU. What is normally not said, however, is that this also means retaining all the EU's product standards, financial regulations, employment regulations, and substantial contributions to the EU budget.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model

They low intelligence of  the average UKIP member means even the ones who can read  struggle to  understand what this means.
Beware the bile of the hard right. Ex Nazis who infiltrate mainstream parties to further their agenda of racial purity and enact'death to all traitors'

[mk1]

the two referenda Norway endured in 1972 and 1994 as to whether they should join the EU was arguably the best bit of TV of the day.
On both referenda occasions the establishment were well and truly shafted as Norway overwhelmingly voted NO on both occasions.

Did they really?

1972  46.5% yes  53.5% no.  A  7% difference of 146,000 votes
1994  47.8% yes  52.2% no.  A 5% difference of 126,806 votes

In looney UKIP-speak 5-7% is  'overwheming'!

Do these idiots ever consult the facts before the spout off in public? 




T

[akarjl]

It started as a common market no politics but look how it has changed over the years

The EU has;

A flag,

An anthem,

A currency,

A foreign policy,

Massive control over domestic policy areas including home affairs, borders and welfare,

A foreign minister,

A president

An unelected commission that really pulls all the strings

And now they want an EU army a very dangerous step indeed.

Sums it up. It was not what we agreed to in the 70's.

I am not a member of any political party, including UKIP, frankly I have a deep-seated distrust of most politicians which is reinforced every time I read about the antics of "scabs and the gang" in Hartlepool,but I am a citizen who has worked all over the world and consider myself educated and well read.

I have not met many people who are claiming they will vote to remain. So either everyone I know is going to change their mind at the last moment ( a possibility depending on weather and whoever was most convincing on TV the previous night) or the public have made up their minds and will exercise their democratic right to make their opinion know and we leave the EU.

Being abusive and disrespectifull towards anyone who doesn't agree with your opinions archives nothing and smacks of the "bullyboy tactics" some UKIP members are accused of.

Implying people are illiterate because they do not agree with your world "view" is frankly childish. If this is the underlying sentiment throughout the Remain camp, many will realise what they are dealing with and act accordingly.

You could save a lot of time/energy and posts by simply saying

" if you don't agree with me and you think we should vote out you are retarded illiterate and you can F**K off"

, which basically sums up the flavours of most of your posts on the subject. But then again everyone would then realise what they are dealing with

[mk1]

I have not met many people who are claiming they will vote to remain.

If you live in a bubble of self-reinforcing haters it is easy to imagine 'you' are right and everyone else deluded. However I believe delusion is better illustrated by someone claiming everyone wants out and the polls are off by a huge margin.

[mk1]

You could save a lot of time/energy and posts by simply saying

" if you don't agree with me and you think we should vote out you are retarded illiterate and you can F**K off"

You could also save making an ar*se of yourself by checking the rambling mistake-ridden pointless and frankly inane  posts that UKIP members have contributed here. Look for the ones that sound like they were written by a 7 year old. Let me be clear-they can not write or spell nor can they construct a coherent sentence. I am not exaggerating for effect they literally can not write or spell. I am not talking about simple spelling errors but a complete inability to construct a sentence that is legible.
Kipper  made an astonishing claim about Churchill  forcing Chamberlain out in 1939 and declaring war on Hitler when in fact Churchill did not declare war and did not become PM until May 1940 when France was invaded. How can you take anyone seriously who does not even know his own nations history?
I stand by my claim that the UKIP stalwarts who post here are 'uneducated'.

[steveL]

If you read one of KD's posts, you'll find that any pro-EU names are prefixed by a derogatory adjective be they Cameron, the BBC or anyone else. KD has a real problem accepting that it's OK for someone to have a different point of view to himself even though he frequently tells us how undemocratic the EU is. In KD's world, democracy is great as long as its end result is to agree with him.

I myself have great reservations about the EU and of how undemocratic it is but I stopped taking people like KD seriously a long time ago because of the intolerance he displays to others and because of his use of the term 'white Christian' as a tribal definition. I have a problem with how anyone can describe themself as a Christian while showing the level of intolerance that he does.

UKIP's problem has always been that in its rush to bump up its membership numbers, it has opened the door to all sorts of looney-tunes like KD making any possibility of espousing a rational anti-EU argument impossible. The result is that they have resorted to doing their best to whip up the anti-immigration sector to appeal to the nationalistic neanderthals that lurk within every society. When the Remain Campaign was wobbling, Farage's advice was to switch from the economy to immigration as the main issue. He knows that it's a tried and tested approach, just check your history books.  The scapegoat varies but the goal remains the same.

So for all of my own reservations about the EU, I'll be voting to stay in because I don't want to give even a molecule of oxygen to those who have hate as their main source of energy.

[testing times]

I read a report the other day which said that, on its present trajectory, the UK will overtake Japan and then Germany in the largest economies stakes by 2030. Too late for old codgers like me to see but the grand bairns will hopefully see it. I just wish we could score penalties 

[mk1]

I read a report the other day which said that, on its present trajectory, the UK will overtake Japan and then Germany in the largest economies stakes by 2030. Too late for old codgers like me to see but the grand bairns will hopefully see it.

The German economy is far lager then the UK and it aslo has minuscule debt compared to the UK. On nearly every economic  measure Germany outperforms the UK by up to 50% .  Since 1900 Germany has been the dominant nation in Europe and that includes the UK in Europe. Both WW1 and WW2 were fought to deprive Germany of her dominance and had nothing to do with a fight for  'democracy'. It would take a miracle for the UK to match Germany never mind overtake her. We simply do not have the population of the infrastructure to manage it. The Germans have better health service, higher wages (for ordinary people not billionaires) and a higher paying social security system and we kid ourselves that 'they' envy us.

[akarjl]

I don't want to give even a molecule of oxygen to those who have hate as their main source of energy.[/size]

I agree with your thoughts- unfortunately the exit campaign has been lead by some bitter and twisted people who have their own agenda. Then again the remain campaign appears to be promising changes which they have not secured, as promised over the last few years so what would be different if we remain?

Jeremy Corbyn gave a good account of himself in an interview on sky news, seems a decent man with humanitarian issues at heart, if it wasn't for the antics of the so called "labour" party in Hartlepool, many of which it seems do not know what work is, I would be tempted to follow his approach. He did, I believe state

he is "not a lover" of Europe

and argued that it is better to stay and try and change Europe.

Unfortunately it seems Europe does not want to allow Britain to change the EU, any disagreement with European policy is referred to as "Cherry picking" and seen as an example of Britain looking after their own interests. Oddly I think that's what we should be doing either within Europe or out of Europe. Unfortunately I suspect the European Federal state has gone too far down the wrong path for us to expect to stay in and turn back the madness.

He also expressed grave concerns regarding how people in politics and in general constantly name call and attack each other until observers literally loose interest.

If,having looked at the information, you decide which way you intend to vote, someone calling you illiterate or accusing you of being stupid because they disagree with you, simply reinforces ones decision, whichever way one has chosen to vote.

[mk1]

German politicians on Newsnight tonight seem pretty keen to 'make an example' of the UK if we vote to leave. They say they need a lesson for all the other countries that might try and  ask for changes. The harsher they treat the UK the better to warn the others what they can expect if they try and blackmail Germany. You only have to look at Greece to see how they can (as the paymaster) dictate the terms. Belief that the UK is going to keep all it has now  by leaving are simply absurd.

Cue clips of Mel Gibson shoutlng 'freedom'..............................

[akarjl]

German politicians on Newsnight tonight seem pretty keen to 'make an example' of the UK if we vote to leave. They say they need a lesson for all the other countries that might try and  ask for changes. The harsher they treat the UK the better to warn the others what they can expect if they try and blackmail Germany. You only have to look at Greece to see how they can (as the paymaster) dictate the terms. Belief that the UK is going to keep all it has now  by leaving are simply absurd.

Cue clips of Mel Gibson shoutlng 'freedom'..............................

make an example aka bullying - if this is true they appear not to have learned the lessons of history.

[mk1]

someone calling you illiterate or accusing you of being stupid because they disagree with you, simply reinforces ones decision, whichever way one has chosen to vote.

I have no hesitation calling any adult who struggle to construct a simple sentence uneducated. That these people are UKIP officials says a lot about UKIP. I do not say they are thick because they disagree with me. I say they are thick because they are thick. If they wanted to remain they still would be thick.
I do not care a hoot about how you vote or want to convert you to my view.

[mk1]

if this is true they appear not to have learned the lessons of history.

What lesson would that be?
The Greek example and the one most relevant to the point being made or are you going to go back 75 years and  start whistling the theme from the great escape like all the other little englanders ?