Disloyalty

[beanzontoast]

Exellent post Riddler5, the North Korea piece is what the Labour party is all about, a SOCIALIST PARTY is one step removed from a Communist party, they don`t say that of course they like to  keep it in the shadows and away from the gaze from anyone who values freedom from slavery, if you care to look of course you can see the symbolism, the locals call HBC the Kremlin it`s built in the communists favourite colour ( red ), the party emblem is red, at the end of all party conferences they sing the red flag which is another communist link, Ed. Milliband is a Marxist as was his father before him again Communist. Many of the EU commissioners are ex communists that's why the Labour party love it so much, and as iv`e said before the lib. Dems are Labour without the unions, the Labour party want mass immigration, and the multinationals want cheap labour, and as Cameron is told what to do by the multinationals he too wants to be in the EU, look at an article in one of todays nationals to see the close links to Cameron and his no comment on googles child porn sites. Politics really is better than the tele well the soaps anyway. And as for the voters and activists for both Labour and the Tory`s are too dogmatic to see their party has changed and change their vote or jump ship, in fact Cameron is so bad for the torys they are saying only his wife can save him and the tory party at the next election ( over to you Mr. Moore )

[DRiddle]

Interesting thread this. I suppose half the problem is the people in the town who do have a bit of political nous, experience of business and life in the real world, but with ethics and integrity at their core are few and far between.

Of those that do tick those boxes, most are probably so bemused by the whole 'snake pit' thing, they probably wouldn't want to put themselves or their families through it.

Although that said, that's probably half the reason the current lot (most of them anyway) have been able to make such as hash of it.

[Inspector Knacker]

Any town being an high benefit dependency town probably suits the Labour Party down to the ground .... you have a nice lumpen mass there to keep them in offce. If by any chance such a place was to acquire a questioning, politically aware electorate, they'd be hard pushed... the whole system is designed to nurture failure. So,.... you either acquire a sizeable thinking electorate (unlikely) or an articulate, political street fighter of an independent ...... or the stagnation continues.
Look at Darlington, the blushing marginal which acquires nice government departments with it's electorates willingness to court the politicians...whereas we are are regarded as so fundamentally secure we can be treat with patronising contempt by all the parties.... the electorate are politically inert sadly.

[DRiddle]

Interesting points Stephen. I think I could deal with the whole 'He must be on the take' thing, because I'd know I wasn't and that'd be good enough for me. That said, I definitely would struggle with the battle against the bureaucracy you've outlined.

I've voluntarily left organisations several times already where I felt I was wasting my time, energy and work ethic trying to convince people to do what seemed glaringly obvious to me.

I'm sure HBC would be just the same. Not a good 'fit' for me i'd imagine. I need autonomy and I think it'd be like wearing a straight jacket inside a locked wardrobe. 

[mk1]

The Tory  leader (Ray) is in it for himself.
He has sold the Tory vote to the fa*tty Belchers in return for  a chalr and no Tory (I can see) has ever tackled him about it.
Perhaps Shane  can explain the thinking behind such a deal. Is it 'we have no real chance of voting down Labour so selling ourselves won't change the outcome  but it gives us some  power'


You can dance around the issue all you want but the Tory vote has been sold-just not for money!

[Stig of the Seaton Dump]

I have been angry, frustrated by what I have learnt from HTH in a short period of time and have been told, if you don't like it you can always stand yourself.

I work full time for a large private company that has an annual round of redundancies not pay rises and I am also a single parent ...it is fact not excuse that stops me being being involved in politics, local or otherwise.

I think my specific situation is not the same as everybody but a large amount of us out here are in the same boat, we want to make a difference, circumstances prevent us and we feel helpless because the mod thinks they represent us.

[SRMoore]

The Tory  leader (Ray) is in it for himself.
He has sold the Tory vote to the fa*tty Belchers in return for  a chalr and no Tory (I can see) has ever tackled him about it.
Perhaps Shane  can explain the thinking behind such a deal. Is it 'we have no real chance of voting down Labour so selling ourselves won't change the outcome  but it gives us some  power'

You can dance around the issue all you want but the Tory vote has been sold-just not for money!

Yes and no.

I can understand that it can and indeed sometimes does look like the three Tory councillors have 'sold out' by supporting Labour the majority of the time. Of course, that's the simple way of looking at it.

The other side of the argument is that in the past a Labour held council has withheld funds and investment into Conservative held wards. Because of this these areas have not had their fair share of works. The three remaining Tory councilors soon realized that they must start to work with the ruling party in order to deliver what their residents elected them to do.
In building relations with the ruling party they are now able to be part of discussions and help form decisions that will effect our town in a proactive way. So when you see Tory councillors voting with Labour at full council meetings, the majority of the time it is because the Tories have had input into what they are voting on.

SteveL is often quick to say that the Tories in Hartlepool are irrelevant but he is quick to forget that this 'irrelevant' group of 3 councillors have more political clout and have a greater say in the governance of Hartlepool than PHF do with 5 councillors.

Having said all of that one is left asking 'but isn't there a point at which too much support can be detrimental?' The answer is yes. And I've never made a secret of this, but personally I think the group has passed that point and needs to take a step back.

[fred c]

Or a case of..................


"There are slavish souls who carry their appreciation for favors done them so far that they strangle themselves with the rope of gratitude"

[Lucy Lass-Tick]

Or a case of..................


"There are slavish souls who carry their appreciation for favors done them so far that they strangle themselves with the rope of gratitude"

Most apt, methinks ... 

[steveL]

The Tory  leader (Ray) is in it for himself.
He has sold the Tory vote to the fa*tty Belchers in return for  a chalr and no Tory (I can see) has ever tackled him about it.
Perhaps Shane  can explain the thinking behind such a deal. Is it 'we have no real chance of voting down Labour so selling ourselves won't change the outcome  but it gives us some  power'

You can dance around the issue all you want but the Tory vote has been sold-just not for money!

Yes and no.

I can understand that it can and indeed sometimes does look like the three Tory councillors have 'sold out' by supporting Labour the majority of the time. Of course, that's the simple way of looking at it.

The other side of the argument is that in the past a Labour held council has withheld funds and investment into Conservative held wards. Because of this these areas have not had their fair share of works. The three remaining Tory councilors soon realized that they must start to work with the ruling party in order to deliver what their residents elected them to do.
In building relations with the ruling party they are now able to be part of discussions and help form decisions that will effect our town in a proactive way. So when you see Tory councillors voting with Labour at full council meetings, the majority of the time it is because the Tories have had input into what they are voting on.

SteveL is often quick to say that the Tories in Hartlepool are irrelevant but he is quick to forget that this 'irrelevant' group of 3 councillors have more political clout and have a greater say in the governance of Hartlepool than PHF do with 5 councillors.

Having said all of that one is left asking 'but isn't there a point at which too much support can be detrimental?' The answer is yes. And I've never made a secret of this, but personally I think the group has passed that point and needs to take a step back.

I don't think you will ever be able to move forward, Shane unless you are able to re-read your post and appreciate just on how many levels this sort of thinking is wrong.

On this basis, your answer to the school bully would be to hand over your money or mobile phone instead of doing something to stop bullying.

"SteveL is often quick to say that the Tories in Hartlepool are irrelevant but he is quick to forget that this 'irrelevant' group of 3 councillors have more political clout and have a greater say in the governance of Hartlepool than PHF do with 5 councillors. "

I don't think so. Standing by the table hoping to catch the odd crumb thrown your way is not just wrong - it's pathetic.

Maybe this is a good time to remind you that the reason HBC is currently subject to a public inquiry is that a PHF councillor proposed it at a council meeting while your own Mr Wells tried to rubbish the suggestion claiming that it would cost 'tens, if not hundreds of thousands of pounds'.

At the same time, there have been no calls from the Tory councillors for Wilcox to resign or to even question the whole Manor Residents fiasco - they are keeping well out of it in case it upsets their labour colleagues.

HBC elected councillors are meant to represent all of the electorate - not just those who voted for them. If you are saying that the only way to get funds spent in Rural West is to comply with every Labour wish then you should be screaming how wrong that is from the roof tops, not meekly voting for every peverse labour measure that comes your way - like shamefully voting with Labour to restrict public questions.

[SRMoore]

I don't think you will ever be able to move forward, Steve unless you reread my last post in its entirety and not burst into a fit of rage when you see that PHF are criticised half way through.

MK1 asked me for a reason behind why the Conservative group may act as they do. I may not agree with the reason but I gave one and I can understand some of the logic behind it.

As for Geoff calling for the public enquiry, great! I'm glad he did. But can you honestly tell me when the last time Steve Gibbon, Keith Dawkins, Kelly Atkinson or even Alison Lilley last spoke out in a full council meeting and what it was they spoke against/for? Whilst you accuse the Tory group of being a one man show, one can clearly see the similarities between the two groups.

[SRMoore]

Get over yourself Stephen  lol

[steveL]

I don't think you will ever be able to move forward, Steve unless you reread my last post in its entirety and not burst into a fit of rage when you see that PHF are criticised half way through.

MK1 asked me for a reason behind why the Conservative group may act as they do. I may not agree with the reason but I gave one and I can understand some of the logic behind it.

As for Geoff calling for the public enquiry, great! I'm glad he did. But can you honestly tell me when the last time Steve Gibbon, Keith Dawkins, Kelly Atkinson or even Alison Lilley last spoke out in a full council meeting and what it was they spoke against/for? Whilst you accuse the Tory group of being a one man show, one can clearly see the similarities between the two groups.

Well not really, Shane. It was Keith Dawkins who called for the public inquiry but then accuracy never was your strong point.

I don't really DO rage, BTW

Anyway, it doesn't really matter if you're a red sheep or a blue sheep; you're still a sheep.

Ba Ba Red Sheep,
Have You and Wool
Yes Sir, Yes Sir, Three bags full
One to Pay for Hair Gel,
One for the Dame,
And One for the Sleepy Guy Who Lives Down the Lane.

[SRMoore]

"accuracy never was your strong point" says the guy who 'forgets that it was David Riddle who first called for the enquiry, then Geoff and THEN Keith Dawkins at full council.

As for being as 'sheep', just listen to yourself every now and again. So quick to blindly jump and attack someone for daring to have opposing opinions to yours and your beloved PHF, without once stopping to consider what they are saying.

At least I have the halls to stick my head above the pulpit and criticise my party when I believe they have made a mistake/gone wrong. Don't think you can say the same.

Baa baa, Steve. Baa, baa.

[fred c]

Remind me Shane, did your elected councillors vote for the proposal to do away with Public Questions or not .