Why such interest in UKIP

[Mican]

Thank you Doris your'e an angel.  Now to go back to the start of all this, I had noticed on numerous occasions on different posts the subject of UKIP kept coming up for some reason or other, so I asked a simple question, "why such interest in UKIP".  Now that is not rocket science but judging by some of the replies that came back you would have thought it was.  I have no doubt that if i had asked a question such as, "what is the benefit of Einsteis theory of relativity in todays society", I may actually have got some answers, no doubt one of them would have been from Doris, bless her, but if the question had been "what was the last episode of Jackanory about" I have no doubt I would have been inundated with answers.  Hope this clears up any confusion anyone had.  Just off for a pint.

[Hartlepudlion]

The answer Mican is quite simple.

The only interest in Ukip for Hartlepool people is if Ukip can be used as a vehicle to get rid of our MP.

An additional interest is can Ukip help to reduce the Labour majority in the Council Chamber? At the moment they are not showing any promise in this aim. The current Ukip Councillors are totally unconvincing and Ukip supporters seem to be going out of their way to alienate possible voters. All the opposition parties will have to work together to achieve this. So come on PHF, Ukip, Independents and, yes, the Tories. Bury the hatchets, become a true opposition and work together for the benefit of the Town and its people.

Apart from that I don't think that there is any interest in Ukip in Hartlepool.

I suspect that nationally the interest is the same. Can Ukip be used to give the establishment a kick up the backside?

[one direction]

So come on PHF, Ukip, Independents and, yes, the Tories. Bury the hatchets, become a true opposition and work together for the benefit of the Town and its people.

Lets take them one at a time......(in my opinion....lol).....

PHF was apparently set up to bring together all the opposition councillors, regardless of their national politics, to provide a real alternative to Labour in Hartlepool. Sadly they appear to have very quickly degenerated into in fighting and ego battles. I predict they will lose Lilley and Dawkins in 2015 and Riddle will allow his ego to convince him to stand as MP in 2015 even though he has no chance. PHF will be just a memory in two years time. The chances of Riddle allowing what's left of PHF to co-operate with any other group are zero unless its under Riddle's "leadership".

UKIP must fight every seat in 2015 as they are really only interested in the EU and stand in local elections only to raise the profile of the party nationally. They don't have a clue about what it means to be a local councillor, as the two who were elected last time have shown. The chances of them co-operating with any other group are zero.

The independents who were willing to put Hartlepool before their own egos and ambitions joined PHF. Those who stayed on their own showed theior true colours, ME ME ME. The chances of them co-operating with any other group are zero.

The Tories are quite happy with their three seats in Rural West. The boundary changes when the council went down to 33 seats more or less guarenteed they will never lose those three but have no real chance of ever getting more than three. The chances of them co-operating with anyone other than the ruling labour group are zero. After all, supporting labour get the Tories their snouts in the trough but opposing labour will lose them their chance to fil theor boots.

So all in all I predict the usual scramble with Labour picking up the pieces and remaining in power with around 30 to 35% of the total vote!

[Stranger in a Strange ...]

Mican I am responsible for a lot of the recent discussion regarding UKIP as a result of the "Alternatives to UKIP" thread.  I am a genuine floating voter - voting for the candidate personally but also with some consideration of their party agenda (if they belong to one).  I am not a plant from any Party and I do wish to see change in Hartlepool.  I do not want the vote to be split between alternatives with the result that there is no change to the status quo. I have only posted a couple of times to date.  I do not want any more discussion on alternatives to UKIP as a result of this post - I can see people are tiring of it.  I probably didn't express the original post very clearly but I was concerned on two counts:

1.  From reading posts there seemed to be an assumption that UKIP would easily take the election in May.  However, for all the press exposure (good and bad) UKIP has very little elected 'presence'  In a general election, rather than a by-election, I think voters behave more conservatively.  I see /hear no evidence of a wave of UKIP support in the town generally.  I am disheartened by the posts noting that the UKIP Councillors have nothing to say and I would like Phil to take about the economic regeneration of Hartlepool rather than get on the bandwagon of the hospital.  I genuinely wondered if we knew of any other candidates being selected to stand.

2.  UKIP are famous for their headline policy of non EU /immigrants but I knew little of their other policies.  A new party has to expect scrutiny because they are unknown.  We can usually guess the policies of the established parties or those policies are usually easily found.  The headlines in the press were disturbing and of course not all true.  However, there was enough to concern me.  If you do not agree with the policies of UKIP it is a moral dilemma as to whether to vote for them regardless just to effect a change. 

Prior to the election I would like to see some kind of public debate in Hartlepool between the candidates - as can be seen on TV with the party leaders. 

Mican - I hope that goes part way to answering your question.

[gmeasor]

Just out of interest.  Who is fighting and where are the ego battles in PHF?

As far as I can see, PHF and a couple of independent councillors are the only real opposition to the current cartel which we appear to be presented with.  Voting tory in Hartlepool is a complete waste of time, they might as well vote labour.  The liberal vote is dead thanks to the current coalition.

In comparison, the Labour group are so used to not being challenged, they appear to be paralysed by their own inertia brought about by years of not being questioned.

The behaviour of the labour group is thoroughly lamentable and I think that more people are becoming aware of this.  The EU elections, the labour group came within 300 votes of losing their majority.  Extrapolating those figures, with an approximate 35% turnout at those elections, assuming a population of 90,000, that represents a majority of 0.95%.  Which is not really convincing in my book.
Taking into account the general election will have a larger turnout, and the amount of public condemnation of our MP and labour controlled council.  The number of disaffected labour voters is potentially huge.  In come UKIP, resonating with the electorate (see by-election results) and we have a situation where a safe labour seat of some 50 years standing is under threat.
I just hope that when it comes to the local election vote, the electorate see that voting UKIP will do nothing at all locally.  Both the UKIP councillors have been silent in council since being elected.  Voting labour merely maintains the status quo.  So PHF would seem the common sense alternative.

[steveL]

"PHF was apparently set up to bring together all the opposition councillors, regardless of their national politics, to provide a real alternative to Labour in Hartlepool. Sadly they appear to have very quickly degenerated into in fighting and ego battles. I predict they will lose Lilley and Dawkins in 2015 and Riddle will allow his ego to convince him to stand as MP in 2015 even though he has no chance. PHF will be just a memory in two years time. The chances of Riddle allowing what's left of PHF to co-operate with any other group are zero unless its under Riddle's "leadership".

oh hang on....this is all starting to sound a bit familiar. Talk of in-fighting and egos and Riddle's insatiable Westminster ambitions before invading Poland.... what user name will you have next week?

[DRiddle]

I predict they will lose Lilley and Dawkins in 2015 and Riddle will allow his ego to convince him to stand as MP in 2015 even though he has no chance.

I'm really not sure where the perception that I have a big ego comes from.

My wife assures me it's of an average size...

[Party Pooper]

Mican,  if you want adult, political debate then you are wasting your time on message boards like this. Treat them as what they are, a wsy of raising tge blood pressure of the fanatics who cant see any validity in a viewpoint other than their own. Reasoned argument can never reach those with true faith who know they are right and everyone else is doomed to burn in hell fire unlessvthey accept the truth and come into the light.  If you want an example of how twisted these people can be just look at the group calling themselves  "hope not hate"  a very laudable aim you might say? Sadly they seem to me to consider every wiewpoint other than their own to be unacceptable and some of their comments and tactics aimed at groups they accuse of being hateful are actually verging on the facist. They are like people who think you can bomb your way to peace?

OD still waiting on the examples about hope not hate !

[one direction]

As i said above "sadly they SEEM TO ME to . . " my opinion lol if I'd said "sadly thet ARE. . . " then that would be another story lol

[Party Pooper]

As i said above "sadly they SEEM TO ME to . . " my opinion lol if I'd said "sadly thet ARE. . . " then that would be another story lol

Hi OD I am not trying to catch you out or anything and saw that you did say it seemed to you. What I am asking is why did it seem that way to you what what caused you to take that view point of Hope not Hate ? It's a broad sweeping statement and needs some clarification. Look forward to reading it.

[beanzontoast]

Why don't you all just look at any party's manifesto,  that will give you their direction of travel,  then base that manifesto on what is now history Labour were in power for 13 years up to 2010 the council from then, as far as I'm concerned their is only one other who has a manifesto UKIP. A manifesto shows it could form a Government,  and when you consider governments change but the civil servants don't so continues continuity, as an example do you think Ronald Reagan could run america without the senate, in Hartlepool you have independants and PHF they have no chance of forming a government. it matters not therefore who you vote for people seem to be fed up with the 3 old tired partys , Hartlepool may well hang another monkey or put a man in a mokey suit in charge hey it's YOUR choice and in the elections in May it's YOUR choice

[Party Pooper]

Keep going Beanz I honestly believe you are doing a great job for UKIP.
I think I have learned more about UKIP from you than I have from any other person and I am grateful to you for the insight you bring to this forum. Your short but interesting explanations of historical matters I have found to be extremely thought provoking. I look forward to reading more of your posts between now and the general and local elections. In fact given your obvious understanding of politics I think you should consider standing for the council I am certain somebody will vote for you, I would give it consideration.
Thanks again.

[one direction]

Hope Not Hate were set up by a splinter group from "Searchlight" which was a left wing organisation with roots back to the Labour party in the 1960's. (http://www.searchlightmagazine.com).  It is funded primarily by several Trade Unions and supported by the Daily Mirror. So I think you can see the average member is going to be left of centre?

Hope Not Hate's decision to attack UKIP was based on a poll of its own members asking "UKIP is surging in the polls and could well come first in next year's European Elections. How should HOPE not hate respond? Should we begin to oppose them or should we stick to extremist groups like the BNP?" (http://www.thecommentator.com/article/2934/_hope_not_hate_can_t_be_serious_with_this_ukip_question_can_it) So It was rather like asking a turkey if it wanted to vote against Christmas?

Hope not hate is, in my opinion, just another extreme left wing group hiding behind a charitable status and a catchy title, after all who can disagree with hope not hate as a sentiment. However, as with all these things you need to look below the surface. If the Greens attack someone over failure to support renewable energy then you know its in the Green's vested interest to promote fear of global warming (remember that? We were all going to be under water by 2020! Now its "climate change") since they need the votes it brings. If Hope not Hate attack UKIP then is it because UKIP is an extremist right wing organisation? or because "UKIP is surging in the polls and could well come first in next year's European Elections" and so is a threat to all those nice, acceptasble Labour MEPs who could lose their seats on the EU Gravy train?

[Party Pooper]

Right thanks for that One direction, I don't see how it supports the comments you made in your original post.
What do you think they should do OD do you think best not to oppose neo facist groups and ignore the lessons of history particularly circa 1930 Germany?
They are supported by several trade unions and the daily mirror, that must make them dangerous then right? What's your views on ex BNP & NF activist being prominent in UKIP ? Does that not worry you and the freedoms you take for granted ? Are you worried that Farage has links with extreme fascists in Europe? If you are why condemn organisations who oppose and expose racists ?
Would you put Show Racism the Red Card in the Same league as Hope not Hate not Hate, no pun intended Show racism the red card involves itself mainly in football as it was started by footballers to drive racism out of football.?

[one direction]

The thing is PP I don't think UKIP are a fascist organisation where as you are obviously coming from the viewpoint thst they are? As regards who UKIP deal with in the EU Parliament then that's called politics,  rather like the Tories and lib dems for the past four years and the lib-lab pact of several governments ago. I personally think organisations like the BNP and Hope not Hate are just two sides of the same coin, both think anyone who disagrees with them are idiots who don't deserve the rights and freedoms they are insisting for themselves. As regards racism in football, this brings us right round full circle.  I don't know if it was you or MK1 or one of the other posters who said because UKIP were fighting racism within its ranks by expelling racist then it proves they are racist. Applying the same logic to football then any club participating in show racism the red card is admiring it is a racist Club otherwise it wouldn't need to join.  So say I think you are not going to accept anything I say abd similar I think you are wrong and I doubt we will ever agree