The Brothers do it AGAIN

[The Great Dictator]

Dead right Grim, i'm in a similar position of power.

In the 70s i trained as a union official and endured unreasonable debate.

Lots of union men become business men but not many business men become union men.

The owner of the plant is securing the funds to keep other plants afloat.

The last thing he wants is to close a business.

Before you go on strike think twice, you'll be a long time retired !

[mk1]

The owner of the plant is securing the funds to keep other plants afloat.

The last thing he wants is to close a business.

It appears there is a world-wide glut of refining plants and it can be done much more cheaply in plants outside the UK.
I suspect what we have here is someone looking for a way to shut up shop and move abroad whilst escaping  blame.
It appears the gullible here have swallowed his line......................

[Mr Mister]

Unlike, I suspect, a number of people on here, I have owned businesses both in Hartlepool and elsewhere and know what it is like to have to compile business plans.
To have borrow money for start-ups and work all hours God sends to keep the business ahead of the competition and world events.
Employees? They don't give a sh*t, as long as their money is in the bank at the end of the month.
No, that's not fair..I would say it's 50/50.

I was looked upon as the 'rich' boss...THEY worked 8 hours a day and went home.
I worked 14 hours a day and went home to check invoices, orders and accounts.
Now retired, I can't believe how easy it is to go to bed at night and go to sleep.

The thought struck me that this is why the likes of Hartlepool will always be a 'backwater' town.
It's 'us and them'. The 'rich' bosses and the poor workers.
There is nothing stopping the 'poor' workers from achieving what the 'rich' bosses have achieved; all you have to do is pay attention at school, get an education and use your brains.
And, with respect, if that is not achievable, stop sniping at those that seize the opportunity, put their house and life into hock and beg the bank manager for a financial start.
I am sure Jim Radcliffe didn't start out a multi-millionaire...he no doubt took the risk and mortgaged himself to the hilt and eventually it paid off.
In America he would be classed a 'winner'. here in the UK we detest the 'rich' bosses.
Richard Branson started out selling car aerials from the boot of his car and is now reported to be retiring to his place in the Caribbean.
Despite the fact he employs thousands of people throughout his various companies, the snipers have started, calling him a 'tax dodger' etc.
Even though he has always been domiciled in the UK for tax purposes.

Behind all of this I believe, are the unions.
Forever decrying the 'rich' bosses and unsettling the workforce for strike purposes. (And to garner more to join the ranks and pay in their subs. It keeps the likes of McClusky in the lifestyle he's accustomed to!).

The refinery...How many of you would turn down a £40,000 a year job, even if you had to pay 6% towards your own pension?
Unite have finally had to back down over their spurious claims and I hope the workforce do keep their jobs but at the same time, I hope they also see the folly in following the likes of the Communist dinosaur, McClusky going along the same lines of Red Robbo and the demise of British Leyland.

A pause for the usual suspects to pick over my comments like carrion crow.

As someone that has been through the mill to start businesses and employed people and suffered the stress of keeping them going and people in jobs, I do not intend to go into a protracted diatribe on here about 'rich' bosses and 'poor' workers.
You have my point of view and, having lived through it...it is now closed.

100% Agree with you, every single word, what a refreshing change your post is..someone who can really see it for how it is!

[The Great Dictator]

What we have MK1 is someone like Nissan who rely on big government handouts, he's no different to WCNE and MRA..

[Hartlepudlion]

So the Unions have backed down and Grangemouth has been saved.

What's the betting we will now see the Unions flexing their muscles in the only area they can, the Public Sector. We could now be looking at another winter of discontent.

Where is arc86 on this thread? He normally has a lot to say defending the Unions?

[mk1]

So the Unions have backed down and Grangemouth has been saved.

Well that is what the firm pays its taxes for...oh wait, they don't pay UK taxes. The upped sticks and moved the offices to Switzerland to avoid paying any tax..............

Yeah for the freedom to move your millions offshore.

[The Great Dictator]

Dead right, the dummies can't see it !

[mk1]

asked the government minister I was dealing with how they could afford to take no taxation from the companies moving there. The simple answer was the companies employed 1,000's of people, all of whom paid income tax to the government and all of whom spent their disposable income in the shops, resteraunts, theaters, etc which themselves employed people who paid income tax to the government and spent their disposable income in the shops, cafes, theatres, etc.

Translated that means people who work for a living pay taxes. The money they pay taxes on is not gifted to them by the employer but they earn it by making things the company sells. The company 'sell' their labour and put a bit on top for themselves.
Are you  claiming now that no company should ever pay tax if its employees pay tax?

It may stick in your throat that one man makes £millions but that one man also allows 1,000s of people to have a better life.

You have it ar*se first.
The employer does not 'allow' anything.  The employee works and makes the things that are sold at a profit.  If anything it is the workers allow the managers to make  millions.

So lets tax all the wealth creators until their pips squeak,

Yes just like the tax paid by Starbucks, Google, Amazon.
Remind me how many pips they have had squeezed out of them.......

lets drive the profits out of big business, lets make sure no-one can make money from the labour of others. Lets shut the whole country down so that no-one has anything, then we'll all be equal. Except of course for the rich and mobile, who will have moved abroad and taken their capital with them to a country thast rewards enterprise rather than resents anyone who does well for themselves!

You talk a lot of bollocks. No one said any of that. You clearly have an issue with rich people paying tax.

Do you have a poster of Leona Helmsley on your wall?

[Hartlepudlion]

I have to disagree with you on this one mk1. Let me put SAs post another way.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. In other words mass employment produces more taxes and benefits than low employment. Thus why discourage the wealth producers, the companies, by high taxation so that they want to reduce their tax liability. the black economy flourishes in the NE because of tax avoidance, what's the difference.

Another way. In the Public Sector the way to cover a shortfall is to put the price up e.g car park fees. The private sector tends to reduce prices to increase turnover and overall profit even though the unit profit is reduced. The public sector reduces demand the private sector increases demand. We pay more taxes on more demand.

Surely, helping Companies to trade here by reducing their tax burden is better than increasing their taxes which just encourages them to re-locate. Better to Keep the jobs and the tax revenues generated rather than lose the jobs and the taxes generated by employment.

Your other point. How can the employee make things that are sold to make the profit if the employers don't provide the things in the first place?

[mk1]

There is more than one way to skin a cat. In other words mass employment produces more taxes and benefits than low employment. Thus why discourage the wealth producers, the companies, by high taxation so that they want to reduce their tax liability. the black economy flourishes in the NE because of tax avoidance, what's the difference.

The difference is they companies use this twisted logic to blackmail governments to giving them a complicated tax regime that allows  carrion firms to make a living cheating  the system .
I really can not believe it is being said that  if your employee pays taxes then the firm has no need to.

Are you happy Amazon pay virtually nothing on  their massive profits?
We can make complicated rules that  claw back 10 quid from benefit claimants so it would be very easy to structure taxes do that firms that do business in the UK pay tax in the UK. Tax the work not the  location of the head office.
Truth is all parties are in hock to big business so there is no way they will introduce a fairer tax collection system. Looks like you and I are the ones  who will have to make up the shortfall

Surely, helping Companies to trade here by reducing their tax burden is better than increasing their taxes which just encourages them to re-locate. Better to Keep the jobs and the tax revenues generated rather than lose the jobs and the taxes generated by employment.

The problem with that is the competitive wages we compete against cannot sustain life in the UK.
Give me an example of a firm that having gained reduced tax rates increased wages or lowered prices. Start with the energy firms and the deals just made that pay twice the going rate for Nuclear deals.

Your other point. How can the employee make things that are sold to make the profit if the employers don't provide the things in the first place?

Employers don't provide anything. They set out to make money and they find  they can make more if the let others do the dirty work for them.  As someone famous once said taxes bring you civilisation. I  think all those who believe taxes are a bad should emigrate to places like Mexico where they can hide in gated communities with armed Guards to protect them. Tell  me that is a better way.

I see  turkeys here voting for Christmas. All the shortfall in taxes is made up by mugs like you and I.

[The Great Dictator]

I'm happy that none of the big companies pay tax, they employ millions of people and without that this country is Haiti.

[Mr Mister]

I 100% agree with Mr Allison..

MK1 Clearly old fruit, you've never worked for yourself in the capacity of a small business, you've never employed anyone, in fact, when you have worked, it was for someone else taking orders and not liking it, you stand back thinking "I'm doing all the work and  they're earning all the money", for someone as clued up as you Mr Mac, you clearly have a lot to learn about business.

I have a growing business now, I keep thinking about an office and staff, each time I think "f*c* that" I would need a grand a week going out just to cover a couple of girls answering the phone along with all the other costs associated with having an office. Then you have all the bollox that staff cause you day to day, that was totally unplanned for, then you have all the benefits staff get, that you have to pay for, that you can't even have yourself, as your to busy acting within the laws and paying them wages you often are not left with yourself at the end of each week..

MK1 your set in a time of the 1960's when it was another era..

[ARC86]

Grangemouth - i suppose Hartlepudlion you are gonna blame me! what happened to those workers is an absolute disgrace & good on them for standing up for their terms and conditions (even if they did lose in the end). It's a pity a few of the motor mouths on here didnt have a pair of balls to stand up against Thatcher and unscrupulous employers. A fair days work for a fair days pay is not to much to ask for in whatever job you do. This is typical tory Britain, the rich get richer while the rest of us join in the race to the bottom. Why should workers just roll over? Why wouldnt JR negotiate?

One thing i do know about Grangemouth is that it would never have closed down even after Jim Radcliffe said it would. He is a venture capitalist at its worse. A vulture chopping up companies and syphoning off millions to line his own pockets. Profit isnt bad, but morals wouldnt go amiss in this situation and that man Radcliffe clearly hasnt got any!

[steveL]

More to this than meets the eye, so it seems.

Incidentally, recruiting members in a similar way has apparently happened within Hartlepool Labour Group and led to similar, more local enquiries in the past - -hasn't it, Stephen?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-24716429

[The Great Dictator]

I think £40,000 a year is compensation enough..i could think of 1m people who would take those jobs.