2018 candidates

[jeffh]

In response to Jeff: The issue is indeed time. Hence the allowance to compensate for time lost at work. It's a similar set up with some emergency services. The response volunteers leave work to attend an emergency and the loss of pay is offset to a degree by a small allowance for attending the inicdent. Pay is still lost but people do this because helping people is more important than their own pocket but, losing the pay without an allowance would prevent some from doing this valuable work. People have bills to pay and mouths to feed.

To both: I've been in council meetings where the time of various meetings was discussed. The chairs of each committee have the freedom to hold the meetings whenever they wish. IT was mentioned that evening meetings in various parts of the town were held but it was still the same people who attended regardless. This doesn't change the fact that the allowance is there to mitigate any loss of income from primary employment when carrying out council duties. Yes some people will lose a little income when they choose council work over their primary work (where applicable), this is the same in many sectors and for many people who take part in charity or volunteer work. It's all about getting the people willing to make that sacrifice while still being up to the task.

The difference between councillors attending meetings and volunteer emergency workers is that the councillors have control over when the meetings are whilst volunteer emergency responders do not.
The argument regarding public attendance at meetings is weak as the primary concern here is getting COUNCILLORS to attend - if there is no impact on public attendance why not hold the meetings when more councillors are available?
Some jobs preclude you from attending meetings - imagine the newest member from Headland Harbour popping out from A&E to attend a Planning Committee Meeting?

[Username]

Evening meetings of committees have a cost implication toe HBC which was also explained, in addition to the cost of opening the building the council staff who need to present to those committees are paid overtime to attend the evening meetings. This costs significantly more than the £35 a week allowance increase.

And of course not Jeff but as the meetings are posted in advance I'm sure whether it's A&E or something else then time off can be booked or shifts can be swapped.

[jeffh]

Evening meetings of committees have a cost implication toe HBC which was also explained, in addition to the cost of opening the building the council staff who need to present to those committees are paid overtime to attend the evening meetings. This costs significantly more than the £35 a week allowance increase.

And of course not Jeff but as the meetings are posted in advance I'm sure whether it's A&E or something else then time off can be booked or shifts can be swapped.

My understanding that the increase is £75,000 per year - what would be the cost of evening meetings?

So it is OK for the employed to swap shifts etc. - so why aren't we saying that to those councillors who do work, won't budge from daytime meetings when they know that a greater pool of councillors would be available if they met on an evening.

This reluctance to have evening meetings flies in the face of the Constitution where politically balanced committees are called for, yet due to restricted meeting times that is unachievable - now that might be a reason to keep the meetings to daytime hours.

[fred c]

Attempts to justify an increase in councillors allowances here is futile, to many people have have been around for to long to swallow any of that magumba, how many of the ruling group actually work, of those how many 'work' in the community / voluntary / charity sector.

You mention that allowances should be used in lieu of salary if a councillor forgoes his / her primary employment in order to attend to council business, 'that may be the intended purpose' however a point worth mentioning is..... an elected officer of this council, chose to inform his employer that he would be attending a funeral, if it had ben a genuine reason for time off, his employer would in all probability have paid him for that day, if as you claim councillors allowances should be used for such a purpose, why didn't that councillor apply for a days leave of absence, his days pay would have been in the form of his allowance..... his reason for the funeral excuse... I'll let you decide that.

As it happens, we now know that the funeral was a spurious and despicable figment of a warped mindset and a simple act of greed resulted in the individual being dismissed from his position for GIM.

[Username]

I have no idea as to what the cost would be but I would imagine the increased running costs, overtime bill, security, etc etc for multiple evenings per week would add up to quite a substantial amount. There would also be outrage from the public as a result of this I imagine.

Ok I'll try and lay out how I see it. Yes it's fine for the employed to shift swap to attend meetings if they can. Why would it not be? There is sufficient notice and it's a post they stood for knowing the set up. The councillors I've seen int he chamber making an issue of not being able to attend meetings were told the meetings could be held on an evening if needed and still chose not to put themselves forward for committee posts even when the posts should have been filled by independant councillors. I think the timings of the meetings is being used somewhat as a smokescreen.

[Username]

Attempts to justify an increase in councillors allowances here is futile, to many people have have been around for to long to swallow any of that magumba, how many of the ruling group actually work, of those how many 'work' in the community / voluntary / charity sector.

You mention that allowances should be used in lieu of salary if a councillor forgoes his / her primary employment in order to attend to council business, 'that may be the intended purpose' however a point worth mentioning is..... an elected officer of this council, chose to inform his employer that he would be attending a funeral, if it had ben a genuine reason for time off, his employer would in all probability have paid him for that day, if as you claim councillors allowances should be used for such a purpose, why didn't that councillor apply for a days leave of absence, his days pay would have been in the form of his allowance..... his reason for the funeral excuse... I'll let you decide that.

As it happens, we now know that the funeral was a spurious and despicable figment of a warped mindset and a simple act of greed resulted in the individual being dismissed from his position for GIM.

I'm not about to defend something I don't agree with. It was the wrong thing to do and as I have no involvement at all in that I don't see why I would be asked to justify it.

Also I don't know how many work in those sectors, I've not looked into it. Are you suggesting that those sectors don't constitute real work though? That's the implication I got from the 'work' please correct me if I'm wrong. I've sent the amount of work that goes into the voluntary/charity sector, the vast majority of it unpaid, and it is just as demanding than any company.

[jeffh]

I have no idea as to what the cost would be but I would imagine the increased running costs, overtime bill, security, etc etc for multiple evenings per week would add up to quite a substantial amount. There would also be outrage from the public as a result of this I imagine.

Ok I'll try and lay out how I see it. Yes it's fine for the employed to shift swap to attend meetings if they can. Why would it not be? There is sufficient notice and it's a post they stood for knowing the set up. The councillors I've seen int he chamber making an issue of not being able to attend meetings were told the meetings could be held on an evening if needed and still chose not to put themselves forward for committee posts even when the posts should have been filled by independant councillors. I think the timings of the meetings is being used somewhat as a smokescreen.

Sorry - the only reason I asked about the cost was you said it would cost more than the increase, so I thought you'd researched your facts - sorry my mistake

I'm not aware of any proposal to move meetings to an evening - my understanding it is at the discretion of the chairs of the various committees.  I believe that Councillor Thompson made a proposal that 25% of meetings go to evening, but I don't know the outcome of that.

I don't think meeting timing is a smokescreen - so we'll agree to disagree

[mk1]

I've sent(seen?) the amount of work that goes into the voluntary/charity sector, the vast majority of it unpaid, and it is just as demanding than any company.

Ah the old chestnut about 'working in the voluntary/charity sector'. The impression is given that any work they do is also 'voluntary' but this is not so. What these thieves fail to explain  is 'I have set up a company that works in the Voluntary Sector but naturally I will be paying  myself a big fat salary whilst those who work under me will be the volunteers.

[testing times]

Forget the councillors for a moment, the public also wants to see more meetings held on the evenings. This was the result of one of the council's famous 'consultations' which, in this instance, went badly wrong for them. Did they implement it? No., they only implement the result of consultations if they agree with it.

[steveL]

I've sent(seen?) the amount of work that goes into the voluntary/charity sector, the vast majority of it unpaid, and it is just as demanding than any company.

Ah the old chestnut about 'working in the voluntary/charity sector'. The impression is given that any work they do is also 'voluntary' but this is not so. What these thieves fail to explain  is 'I have set up a company that works in the Voluntary Sector but naturally I will be paying  myself a big fat salary whilst those who work under me will be the volunteers.

Yes, I seem to remember Wilcox paying herself £47,000 for her work in the 'voluntary sector'; not to mention her daughter's salary and a whole bunch of other friends and relatives.

[Username]

I was of course referring to the increase per councillor. I would have no way to research the increase in cost of holding the sessions in the evening. Would you?

MK1: Some of these charities are bigger than most multinationals and need the same levels of skills to manage them. It's also a full time job and the people working in them should receive fair renumeration. The costs are saved on staff which is where the volunteer aspect comes in.

I think if the public want the meetings held on an evening then they should be. Where/when was the consultation held? I've not been consulted so there may need to be a better way to highlight these consultations to the wider pubic.

[Username]

I've sent(seen?) the amount of work that goes into the voluntary/charity sector, the vast majority of it unpaid, and it is just as demanding than any company.

Ah the old chestnut about 'working in the voluntary/charity sector'. The impression is given that any work they do is also 'voluntary' but this is not so. What these thieves fail to explain  is 'I have set up a company that works in the Voluntary Sector but naturally I will be paying  myself a big fat salary whilst those who work under me will be the volunteers.

Yes, I seem to remember Wilcox paying herself £47,000 for her work in the 'voluntary sector'; not to mention her daughter's salary and a whole bunch of other friends and relatives.

And she was rightly convicted. I'm not 100% up to speed on that but it seems to me she would have done the same regardless of whatever sector she worked in.

[steveL]

You haven't heard about it because the council did everything they could to smother the result afterwards. However, it's been discussed in council when we had the delight of hearing Marjorie James claiming that there would have to be a 'family impact' study before it could be implemented. Council Officers receive lieu time for working out of normal office hours which I'm sure they would welcome as they save such hours up to gain extra holidays.

I see no reason why evening meetings would be any more expensive than those held during the day.

[Username]

I see no reason why evening meetings would be any more expensive than those held during the day.

Extra cost of running the building for more hours and employing staff for additional hours.

Regardless, I have no issue with the meetings being held on an evening or during the day. If I were an elected councillor I would ensure I attend any and all which are relevant to my duties.

I haven't heard about the consultation itself is my point Steve, surely all of the public should have been made aware of it to partake. And if the results support evening meetings then great. Go with that.

[steveL]

I've sent(seen?) the amount of work that goes into the voluntary/charity sector, the vast majority of it unpaid, and it is just as demanding than any company.

Ah the old chestnut about 'working in the voluntary/charity sector'. The impression is given that any work they do is also 'voluntary' but this is not so. What these thieves fail to explain  is 'I have set up a company that works in the Voluntary Sector but naturally I will be paying  myself a big fat salary whilst those who work under me will be the volunteers.

Yes, I seem to remember Wilcox paying herself £47,000 for her work in the 'voluntary sector'; not to mention her daughter's salary and a whole bunch of other friends and relatives.

And she was rightly convicted. I'm not 100% up to speed on that but it seems to me she would have done the same regardless of whatever sector she worked in.

The point being that the charities we are taking about are not, by and large, national chariritites with an established reputation. The trick is to create the charity yourself then gain control of the funding and finances - something that Kevin Cranney has done no fewer han 26 times so far.

Alternatively, you can fix it so that the council awards you, as a councillor, a council contract where, as Manager, you can not only receive a juicy salary but also come and go as you please to council meetings or even to deliver burgers for your partner's greasy spoon business.