Muslims, Northern Ireland etc

[mk1]

MK1, I was in that regiment, and I know the history behind the event.

And I am from the Dundalk area. What does that say to you?

Also you know as well as I do that your version of events is bollocks. 2 or 3 soldiers shot at anyone and everyone and even carried ammunition over and above that issued to  them.
But  no matter. The thing is to accept the past and go forward-like Corbyn. The problem is those who want to continue to fight until the other side admits it was wrong and they can be proved right, Never gonna happen.
Choice is yours-re-fight old battles or move forward?

[mk1]

How about you check up on the events that led up to Bloody Sunday (30 January 1972)
History not your strong point is it?

It would appear- from Shepherds information - not to be your strong point either..

You have had your pants pulled down......

Not even remotely close  sunshine. The problem you have is your as ill-informed about Northern Ireland as you are about Muslims.

[akarjl]

And I am from the Dundalk area. What does that say to you?

Explains a lot actually 

I don't recall bringing up the events in Ireland....simple question have you ever LIVED in a muslim country?

[Shepherd]

mk1 I admire your defence of your argument and a lot the of post you have put on here, they are very good, but I think you are relying on wikipedia, and other second hand reports too much.

I am not having a go but what are your credentials? How old are you? and where have you been?  because you come accrss as an idalistic student, late 20's, clearly very intellegent, but a bit lacking in the way the world works.

I am 53, an ex-para, degreed, chantered engineer with years of overseas experience + years at sea managing workforces; european, american, south american and asian, humanly in particularly the asian, whose own countrymen treated with brutaility on oil and gas projects, renewables worth £50 - 100 million.

I am not the great authority on anything [other than engineering], but i have seen a few things, I have been around.

[Hubris]

I am not having a go but what are your credentials? How old are you? and where have you been?  because you come accrss as an idalistic student, late 20's, clearly very intellegent, but a bit lacking in the way the world works.

Hate to disagree Shepherd, but I think I've sussed our overtly racist friend. His subtle agenda is to try and encourage a few more brown faces into Greatham in an attempt to make the dangerously shallow gene-pool a tad more diverse. A laudable intention because we can all clearly see every day the sad and dangerous impact of what 1400 years of interbreeding leads to.
(MK, in your vast archive, do you have one about the massive drain on the NHS because of the 3% of the population that cause 35% of all genetic-related disorders?)

[mk1]

mk1 I admire your defence of your argument and a lot the of post you have put on here, they are very good, but I think you are relying on wikipedia, and other second hand reports too much.

Taken to its logical conclusion every account of any event over 100 years ago is faulty because no survivor can give the 'real' story. Everyone uses references. It is the basis of our civilisation that  the experience of one generation is passed to others through (up to now) the written word. I find that the people who resort to this kind of argument are those who consider themselves 'the' expert and get a bit uptight when someone else has a differing view. They fall back on the 'well I was there and  thus I know more than anyone else who was not there. because they believe it to be a killer fact that will confound their opponent and render him speechless.  Quite how they would deal with someone who was also there but has  reached a different conclusion to theirs is a puzzle.
Anyway the way it works in most of the areas I work is you try and get as far back as possible and to those who were closest to the event. Participants are best but they are never the final authority because (and I know this from experience) 2 people standing shoulder-to-shoulder during one single action can give two mutually exclusive versions of what happened. People also lie to make themselves look better or because they know they did wrong. In 'groups' a hive mentality can exist where they all  give partial accounts that may not be lies they just leave out bits that reflect badly on the group. Truth is everyone lies to protect themselves, everyone. A competent researcher looks at every account and accounts from the other side as well. Then he makes a decision of what probably happened. You can never know what exactly happened or who is telling the biggest lie. When that decision/conclusion  is reached there will be people who claim you are 'supporting the other side' when in fact you do not support anyone  rather you say both sides were wrong.
Bloody Sunday has had many inquests. The consensus is that a few individual soldiers lost control and fired indiscriminately into the crowd killing innocent people who were on a legal March to protest about Internment. That is fact. Guilt has been admitted and apologies made by the legal representatives of the UK.
Being a free country you are at liberty to dispute this guilt and claim 'you' did nothing wrong and all the blame belongs to the 'enemy' They are just as free to dispute this and say you were  savage bloodthirsty child-killers. The rest of us being reasonable individuals can look at the reports, think gosh what a mess they both lost control. We then move on on hope to stop it happening again. What should not happen is the two parts in the argument be allowed to derail progress by endlessly  blaming the other and re-fighting the whole thing again and again and again in the hope the other side  says 'ok I admit I was wrong and you were right'.  Leave the scab alone and stop picking at it.
I did not bring Bloody Sunday up in any type of blame game. I introduced it because it was a march against internment that went badly wrong. We were talking about internment and not the events of that day. You brought the events into it not me.

I am at least a decade older than you.

[mk1]

(MK, in your vast archive, do you have one about the massive drain on the NHS because of the 3% of the population that cause 35% of all genetic-related disorders?)

Try Nazi Germany and the Aktion T-4 Program. You might find you have more in common with Adolph than you think.

[Hubris]

Try Nazi Germany and the Aktion T-4

Nah. Don't think so. You're getting confused with Sinclair. (It's a genetic thing)

[akarjl]

I am at least a decade older than you

So did these years of research involve experiencing life under Sharia law?

[Shepherd]

Mk1 a very considered and constructive response and I agree that two people can stand side by side, see the same thing and give a totally different account of what happened, it's a really good argument and one I would advocate as a reason for different opinions.

However, you raised bloody Sunday as a subject, not me.

The question I asked was, what are your credentials, because apart from your very obvious intelligence you seem to be very naïve in the ways of the world.

Have you ever worked outside the UK, have you worked in "difficult" places with despotic and totalitarian regimes?

I have, did not like it much but they paid well (yes, I am a mercenary / prostitute) but I was penniless for years as I studied to get my qualifications, no parental help etc...

With respect to Bloody Sunday, discipline in the Parachute Regiment is brutal, I know! Letting off rounds of ammunition without an order will get you a year in Colchester and a beating from fellow tom's no mistake, it just does not happen! Have you been in the Army, never mind an elite unit? I suspect a lot on "no's" are racking up

You mention child killing, can I draw your attention to Warrington and the murder of Tim Parry and Johnathan Ball. As I said you seem to be advocating for these murderers, why?

[mk1]

You mention child killing, can I draw your attention to Warrington and the murder of Tim Parry and Johnathan Ball. As I said you seem to be advocating for these murderers, why?

I mentioned it true but only as a way of showing the you did it first argument is stupid so I can not understand why you brought it up other than a way of cheap point-scoring against the IRA. So I will return the favour. See how this Para shot a schoolgirl in the back and got away with it.

Remember Majella O'Hare as well as Tim Parry and Johnathan Ball.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/mar/28/ministry-defence-apology-majella-ohare
#

Also remember 16 year old John Boyle from Dunloy Antrim in 1978 . He went into a cemetery to check a family grave. He found an IRA arms cache and ran and told his  father. His father (Catholic) rang the police and reported the arms but curiously no action was taken. Next morning the boy went to the graveyard to check if the stuff was still there and a 4 man SAS squad lying in wait shot him dead at point blank range. They were put on trial and the said the boy picked up a gun and pointed it at them but were unable to explain why, if he faced them all the bullets were in his back. Found not guilty the judge described the SAS accounts as 'untrustworthy'.
See how it works?  You blame them ...they blame you and on and on it goes forever. Stop the blame game and  move on.

On the subject of the excess ammo I have a documentary on VHS tapes in which a Sgt in the paras states quite  plainly he believed one of his soldiers was carrying unauthorised ammo and used it. And who can forget the Bloody Sunday  Para Sniper who fired 19 times at a target 500 yds away and missed with every shot. Even stranger no bullet holes were found around the window he fired at  none inside the room either. The  real reason for his  story is believed to be so  his squad do not have to account for 19 bullets they  fired elsewhere.

[Hubris]

Can I propose a bit of a truce on this one. You both make valid points about a tragic and regrettable period in our history. What boils my p**s ref Bloody Sunday (albeit we were at 'war', it resulted in 14 unnecessary deaths, almost certainly illegal) was that it's roots were sewn in the pathetic soil of religion.
Has there ever been a more pernicious influence and impact on human kind than belief in :- a magic pixie in the sky / elaphant headed gods / golden plates of Moroni / virgin births / thor's thunderbolts / downtrodden females / death to gays / Aztec child sacrifices / voodoo / speaking in tongues /  cults of many stripes..........the list of how the mindless and the deluded have been attracted to dogmas based on myths and fairy tales is almost endless ....about 40k recognised ones of various hues are listed. ALL of them equally puerile and totally pointless.

Rant over, back to Bloody Sunday.
Another p**s-boiler for me is the fact that the Saville enquiry took over 10 years to reach a muddled conclusion (fair enough, it was pretty complex) BUT should it have cost £195m?? That's a whole load of nurses or police. How many parasitic 'legals' laughed at us plebs/tax-payers on their way into comfortable retirement on the back of it?

And returning to the main point ref a truce....boys, keep it local!
Mk and Shepherd, what about agreeing to differ on NI and jointly re-focus on:-
- spineless Devin, and helping him find his lost copy of Nolan
- Ms A (apparently yet another religious nut) and her woeful lack of understanding what her highly paid role and responsibilities entail.
- the pernicious influence on our town as applied in bucketfuls by the crooks, tax dodgers, cigarette smugglers, serial bankrupts, dodgy developers and other various chancers and ner'do-wells of every stripe who wield unbelievable influence in Hartlepool.
- the easily duped voters of certain councillors who can't realise they are being conned.
- the 3rd highest CT in the country
- but despite that.....also in the top 10 list of UK deprivation and poverty ( and the ignominy of being in the top 10 of featuring in Private Eye's Rotten Boroughs)
- the Domes
- unfettered planning for un-needed houses
- Jackson's Landing saga/fiasco.

No need to go on (mainly 'cos it really depresses my just thinking of it all) You hopefully get the point. Hartlepool First!!

[fred c]

Final point well made by Hubris......we all have our thoughts / opinions on the issues raised in this thread, but it does get tiresome, maybe the posters can use the National and International section to carry on their debates.


http://www.forum.hartlepoolpost.co.uk/index.php/board,6.0.html

[akarjl]

Apologies Fred I tend to open the "posts since last visit" section by default so rarely take note of the section. Point taken. Haven said that I have said my bit regarding the the issues. There is such a thing as banging your head against a brick wall - last post regarding the issue of muslim madmen.

[Inspector Knacker]

I've just had a wet week embracing the delights of aa angry sky over a slate grey Irish Sea. It rained, rained, rained, warm rain admittedly and the wind chipped in.
I've got back, logged on and I'm going back now.