The revolution... is a dictatorship of the exploited against the exploiters

[perseus]

As grown men on this forum discuss whether or not one called the other an "odious little tw@t", I felt that it was a good time (or an appallingly bad time depending on your take on the afore mentioned spat) to throw my hat into the ring and introduce myself.

I'm not remotely interested in name calling or indeed whether or not two people (at least one of whom is on our council) should be behaving in this way. Frankly, the tit for tat personal jibes on this forum are the main reason I have stayed away from posting on here........until now.

What does interest me however, is not "odious tw@ts", but odious debt.

Put very simply odious debt is a legal theory that holds that the debt incurred by a regime for purposes that do not serve the best interests of community (of people the regime purports to serve), should not be enforceable.

Such debts are, thus, considered by this doctrine to be personal debts of the regime that incurred them and not debts of the community affected.
In some respects, the concept is analogous to the invalidity of contracts signed under coercion.

An obvious example of this could be seen in Iraq where the debts racked up by Saddam should not necessarily have to be then sorted out by the Iraqi people.
With that we arrive at Hartlepool Borough Council, (although not the entire council) but certainly certain individuals attached to it.

When the dust settles after May 3rd, whoever does find themselves seated in that council chamber may well find themselves on the wrong end of odious debt of the kind that will shock Hartlepudlians to their core.

Let's look again. Odious debt is incurred by a regime for purposes that do not serve the best interests of the community. 

That could be construed for example to include the setting up of a community interest company and/or charity, and squandering a load of money with little or no benefit to the residents the CIC was allegedly set up to help. (Apart from a small number of beneficiaries who seemingly gained a LOT).

It could be construed to include money spent on a magazine that literally the second it lands on people's doormats 9 times out of 10 is then put straight into their bin.
It might include a cafe that is frequented by literally NONE of the thousands of people that I know in the town.

It could include moving £200,000 from a national recognized organized that has served the people of the town for decades to an organization that has served SOME in a limited way and in an undoubtedly inferior capacity.

I suppose it could also be deemed to include £270,000 of tax payer's money that was used to compensate the ill treatment of council staff by... another member of the council staff?

Maybe it could even include the £2 Million that will ultimately be spent or a tin shed?

This list of odious debt or overt wasting of public money above could basically go on and on and on.

On May the 3rd the people of this town MUST wake up to the short comings of certain people seated in our council chamber. I say 'our' council chamber because it belongs to us, the people of Hartlepool, not to any one individual or any specific political party.

My suggestion is this. Vote for change, genuine change, whoever that might be. I don't care if that's Hartlepool First, Conservatives of one form or other, liberals or independents.  I'll leave that for you to decide, BUT vote for anyone, literally anyone but Labour, even if in the General election you are a Labour voter.

Open your eyes and see where a quarter of a century worth of predominantly Labour councilors has got us. Look at Baden Street, the situation with the hospital, the community interest companies that appear to being everything BUT what they purport to be, the unemployment, the crime, the high council tax, the millions and millions of pounds that are being wasted year after year.

In 1970 Gil Scot Heron sang "The revolution will not be televised".

On May the 3rd the BBC will be at the count in Hartlepool because they anticipate the most significant shift in the political landscape in this town for decades.  Let's make sure it happens. Vote for decency, vote with freedom of thought, vote for change. 

Let's make sure we prove Gil Scot Heron wrong.

[MkI]

I would love to see that post replicated on a leaflet and put through every single letterbox in Hartlepool. 

Unfortunately I don't think that the message will get across to the masses which is a crying shame.

EDIT:  How much would it cost to take out a full page ad in The Hartlepool Mail to print it?

[christine blakey]

A really good introduction post, welcome to the poster parlour!

I do think we have to use the time up to the election to give information in order that an informed choice can be made.

Sitting in the audience for the Full Council meetings, there is such a change in what is said on the street.  If there will be public outcry at any decisions made, they always say 'It wasn't me, it was them!'

I do hope that people think about this hard, and consider voting for people who have proved their worth outside the Council Chamber.

However, with limited opportunities to show what each candidate could do, don't hold your breath for change!

I am sure many of the leaflets will try to send out this message.  It would be good to have copies of all on this website as I would like to see them in general but it would be good to see how close they are in asking for change?

[codheadless]

ill chip in £50 towards a genuine advert in the mail if the above post by perseous is used.

[notinshadow]

The Mail print it.. not a chance!!

[Stig of the Seaton Dump]

If the persus post is turned into a leaflet ...I'll happily deliver it around Seaton.

P.S. this site can be a bit childish at times and I am sure a lot of it is down to frustration, behind it I am sure there are still some good people.

[notinshadow]

Geoff and I are just bonding!! lets see over the following months how many people he/she doesn't agree with..

[MkI]

The Mail print it.. not a chance!!

Make them either p**s or get off the pot, i.e. get a price get it knocked together right and then submit it as an advertisement and they'll either have to print it or give a reason as to why they won't.

National newspapers carry adverts from the political parties in the run up to general elections so it isn't banned.  What reasonable excuse could they give for not printing it that wouldn't expose them as being in the pockets of certain local people or a political party?

[notinshadow]

As grown men on this forum discuss whether or not one called the other an "odious little tw@t", I felt that it was a good time (or an appallingly bad time depending on your take on the afore mentioned spat) to throw my hat into the ring and introduce myself.

Sorry and all that but I notice you mentioning a post or two and not the other couple of hundred Geoff and I have posted.

So what were your views on them?

I'm not remotely interested in name calling or indeed whether or not two people (at least one of whom is on our council) should be behaving in this way. Frankly, the tit for tat personal jibes on this forum are the main reason I have stayed away from posting on here........until now.

Hang on you say in one breath your not interested in name calling etc (nor me by the way, nor am I on the council) but you went to all the effort of joining the site just to mention it..while making your own tit for tat comments in the process..how strange!!then you go on about not joining the site because of it in the past..well ...er...I have only been back posting a couple of weeks, so why didn't you join in all the time I wasn't posting..I think there is a rabbit off here personally.

What does interest me however, is not "odious tw@ts", but odious debt.

I am always interested in odious t****..

Put very simply odious debt is a legal theory that holds that the debt incurred by a regime for purposes that do not serve the best interests of community (of people the regime purports to serve), should not be enforceable.

OK..

Such debts are, thus, considered by this doctrine to be personal debts of the regime that incurred them and not debts of the community affected.
In some respects, the concept is analogous to the invalidity of contracts signed under coercion.

OK

An obvious example of this could be seen in Iraq where the debts racked up by Saddam should not necessarily have to be then sorted out by the Iraqi people.

Is it..

With that we arrive at Hartlepool Borough Council, (although not the entire council) but certainly certain individuals attached to it.

Agreed

When the dust settles after May 3rd, whoever does find themselves seated in that council chamber may well find themselves on the wrong end of odious debt of the kind that will shock Hartlepudlians to their core.

OK.

Let's look again. Odious debt is incurred by a regime for purposes that do not serve the best interests of the community. 

OK

That could be construed for example to include the setting up of a community interest company and/or charity, and squandering a load of money with little or no benefit to the residents the CIC was allegedly set up to help. (Apart from a small number of beneficiaries who seemingly gained a LOT).

Agreed

It could be construed to include money spent on a magazine that literally the second it lands on people's doormats 9 times out of 10 is then put straight into their bin.

I read it then bin it.

It might include a cafe that is frequented by literally NONE of the thousands of people that I know in the town.

Is it open yet and who is running it.

It could include moving £200,000 from a national recognized organized that has served the people of the town for decades to an organization that has served SOME in a limited way and in an undoubtedly inferior capacity.

Don't agree..this is why...C.A.B. Stockton I am told only need 15% of their money from the council there, as the rest they are funded from in other ways..so therefore why isn't Hartlepool using the same tactics.
I have emailed C.A.B. Stockton to ask what % they say they get from the council and if I get a reply I will post it here.

I suppose it could also be deemed to include £270,000 of tax payer's money that was used to compensate the ill treatment of council staff by... another member of the council staff?

Have you any proof of that figure or is it hearsay.

Maybe it could even include the £2 Million that will ultimately be spent or a tin shed?

That figure I agree with almost..your a couple of hundred thousand short.

This list of odious debt or overt wasting of public money above could basically go on and on and on.

It has done for years, that why we are on this site in the first place.

On May the 3rd the people of this town MUST wake up to the short comings of certain people seated in our council chamber.

Agreed..

I say 'our' council chamber because it belongs to us,

No it doesn't, SteveL wasn't even allowed to defend himself fro mthe onslaught he received the other week in the meeting..so how can it belong to us.

the people of Hartlepool, not to any one individual or any specific political party.

No the Labout party are the sitting tenents with a long lease and has been that way for decades apart from 2000/2001 when squatters took over while they were on holiday..but they were soon chucked out on their ear.

My suggestion is this. Vote for change, genuine change, whoever that might be. I don't care if that's Hartlepool First, Conservatives of one form or other, liberals or independents.  I'll leave that for you to decide, BUT vote for anyone, literally anyone but Labour, even if in the General election you are a Labour voter.

What on earth do you think we have all been chatting about for years on here apart from odius little t****..

It's not for want of trying to rid the town of the scum running it.

Open your eyes and see where a quarter of a century worth of predominantly Labour councilors has got us.

We have had our eyes open for years where have you been.

Look at Baden Street, the situation with the hospital, the community interest companies that appear to being everything BUT what they purport to be, the unemployment, the crime, the high council tax, the millions and millions of pounds that are being wasted year after year.

Tell us something we don't know, rather than collecting what we have all been saying for years and putting it in one place, to make out we have been missing the point for years.

In 1970 Gil Scot Heron sang "The revolution will not be televised".

Really that's nice..

On May the 3rd the BBC will be at the count in Hartlepool because they anticipate the most significant shift in the political landscape in this town for decades.

Yeh right do you really believe that..Labour will still be running thing and I am the first to admit I know little about politics..but even I know that..

  Let's make sure it happens. Vote for decency, vote with freedom of thought, vote for change. 

Come on then who will you be voting for on May 3rd that's going to make the difference and we might vote that way too..might not though..

Let's make sure we prove Gil Scot Heron wrong.

Who cares about G.S.H. and what they sang about 42 years ago.

[notinshadow]

And there (above) is the problem in a nutshell. A new person who obviously agress with the work done by this site and the people on it is attacked on first post for having the nerve to summarise 90% of what you've trying to highlight for years and i did it in such a way that it actually will make people sit up and take notice (i think) if they read it.

Don't be so silly..you as much new as I am Santa.. ho ho ho.

however, rather than listen to your peers and adapt and utilise what i wrote your first instinct was to go on the offensive presumably because i pointed out that you were behaving like children.

Peers..behave yourself..my first instinct wasn't that at all..my first instinct was to blank you and comment on the lack of advert in the Mail..

My second instinct was to reply to your childish comments  regarding Lord Lilley and myself.

you also appear resigned to years of labour rule. if youve given up then move aside and leave it to those who havent. or you could of course hide at your key board calling each other names. its up to you.


My three votes won't be wasted on Labour.. but come May 4th Labour will be running things in the civic sadly if i like it or not..that's life..As for hiding at my keyboard...lol..lol...lol..no mate that won't be me your talking about..ask the Mayor or the Labour lot or the Tories or UKIP or anyone who goes to the council meeting or generally anyone who has ever met me..I am not the hiding type.. I am upfront and honest and have no problem saying my views online, to your face or anywhere else for that matter..you on the other hand..well we know don't we without having to get into a row over it.

I am even thinking of running next time round myself..thinking about it..afterall have you seen some of the lemons running this town..I am sure you have..

Now what I was highlighting was.. that people don't always agree on here and you my friend have helped prove that point nicely...so your no better than Lord Lilley, myself or anyone else that moans at each other on here..get a grip..

[notinshadow]

Also you forgot to mention who it was you were voting for come May 3rd..UKIP Indy.. which one is it??

[marky]

Very interesting post Perseus and don't be put off by the banter.
There will always be people who see every conversation as a boxing match that must have a winner and a loser.

In my view, none of us really knows the 'truth' but, through discussion with others, we modify our views and get a little closer to it each day.

It's only after years and years of listening to the views of others and adjusting our own views , little by little, that we finally reach that Eureka moment when we can proudly shout . . . THAT'S IT!

Then we drop dead. . .

It's Life, Jim . . . but not as we know it. 

[admin]

I remember at one stage, HTH used to do a cut-down paper version called The Other Hartbeat which was available as a download for people to print. It seemed to die a death but it was a good idea I thought. Maybe we should resurrect it.

[notinshadow]

Marky I don't think it's about winners or losers or boxing matches but the rest I agree with totally.

Perseus..
Your using the same tactic as me..although Lord Lilley and myself seldom agree on much, I think my votes have to go his parties way for the same reasons you are applying.

I was accusing anyone of anything, it was a statement of fact.
I don't do catfights either..I simply state my views and opinions. to much some would say..but don't worry, by next week I will have my banning order as usual and everyones happy.

As for uniting sadly and regretably I think the chance PHF had has been wasted in many ways..


I think they should have been doing a lot more before now if they want a right result come May 3rd.

Allison and lilley will get in.. Stevel and Fredc I would like to see get in..

Out of the two standing in my area, I am voting for the women that doesn't look like a geezer, as I think the other lady will do well with the G.L.B.T. voters ..unless the Tories suddenly get their fingers out and pull something out of the bag a bit lively..

[brassed off monkey]

perseus, as someone who has taken 5 decades to realise that confrontational behaviour isn`t the best way for me to live a longer life... i can understand your point of view, but, as marky mentions non of us have the answer to everything.

There are bound to be differing views on all sorts of issues that affect Hartlepool & its people, but despite the "Crack, Banter, Bickering, Insults" & at times downright Nastiness, call it what you will, the majority of HTH members have the town at heart & virtually to a man & woman are fed up with the way the town is run.

As or getting the message across to a wider audience, i`m all for it, its the how its done that is important, if it`s a full page Advert in the Mail, i feel sure people would donate to that cause.