As grown men on this forum discuss whether or not one called the other an "odious little tw@t", I felt that it was a good time (or an appallingly bad time depending on your take on the afore mentioned spat) to throw my hat into the ring and introduce myself.
I'm not remotely interested in name calling or indeed whether or not two people (at least one of whom is on our council) should be behaving in this way. Frankly, the tit for tat personal jibes on this forum are the main reason I have stayed away from posting on here........until now.
What does interest me however, is not "odious tw@ts", but odious debt.
Put very simply odious debt is a legal theory that holds that the debt incurred by a regime for purposes that do not serve the best interests of community (of people the regime purports to serve), should not be enforceable.
Such debts are, thus, considered by this doctrine to be personal debts of the regime that incurred them and not debts of the community affected.
In some respects, the concept is analogous to the invalidity of contracts signed under coercion.
An obvious example of this could be seen in Iraq where the debts racked up by Saddam should not necessarily have to be then sorted out by the Iraqi people.
With that we arrive at Hartlepool Borough Council, (although not the entire council) but certainly certain individuals attached to it.
When the dust settles after May 3rd, whoever does find themselves seated in that council chamber may well find themselves on the wrong end of odious debt of the kind that will shock Hartlepudlians to their core.
Let's look again. Odious debt is incurred by a regime for purposes that do not serve the best interests of the community.
That could be construed for example to include the setting up of a community interest company and/or charity, and squandering a load of money with little or no benefit to the residents the CIC was allegedly set up to help. (Apart from a small number of beneficiaries who seemingly gained a LOT).
It could be construed to include money spent on a magazine that literally the second it lands on people's doormats 9 times out of 10 is then put straight into their bin.
It might include a cafe that is frequented by literally NONE of the thousands of people that I know in the town.
It could include moving £200,000 from a national recognized organized that has served the people of the town for decades to an organization that has served SOME in a limited way and in an undoubtedly inferior capacity.
I suppose it could also be deemed to include £270,000 of tax payer's money that was used to compensate the ill treatment of council staff by... another member of the council staff?
Maybe it could even include the £2 Million that will ultimately be spent or a tin shed?
This list of odious debt or overt wasting of public money above could basically go on and on and on.
On May the 3rd the people of this town MUST wake up to the short comings of certain people seated in our council chamber. I say 'our' council chamber because it belongs to us, the people of Hartlepool, not to any one individual or any specific political party.
My suggestion is this. Vote for change, genuine change, whoever that might be. I don't care if that's Hartlepool First, Conservatives of one form or other, liberals or independents. I'll leave that for you to decide, BUT vote for anyone, literally anyone but Labour, even if in the General election you are a Labour voter.
Open your eyes and see where a quarter of a century worth of predominantly Labour councilors has got us. Look at Baden Street, the situation with the hospital, the community interest companies that appear to being everything BUT what they purport to be, the unemployment, the crime, the high council tax, the millions and millions of pounds that are being wasted year after year.
In 1970 Gil Scot Heron sang "The revolution will not be televised".
On May the 3rd the BBC will be at the count in Hartlepool because they anticipate the most significant shift in the political landscape in this town for decades. Let's make sure it happens. Vote for decency, vote with freedom of thought, vote for change.
Let's make sure we prove Gil Scot Heron wrong.
I would love to see that post replicated on a leaflet and put through every single letterbox in Hartlepool.
Unfortunately I don't think that the message will get across to the masses which is a crying shame.
EDIT: How much would it cost to take out a full page ad in The Hartlepool Mail to print it?
A really good introduction post, welcome to the poster parlour!
I do think we have to use the time up to the election to give information in order that an informed choice can be made.
Sitting in the audience for the Full Council meetings, there is such a change in what is said on the street. If there will be public outcry at any decisions made, they always say 'It wasn't me, it was them!'
I do hope that people think about this hard, and consider voting for people who have proved their worth outside the Council Chamber.
However, with limited opportunities to show what each candidate could do, don't hold your breath for change!
I am sure many of the leaflets will try to send out this message. It would be good to have copies of all on this website as I would like to see them in general but it would be good to see how close they are in asking for change?
ill chip in £50 towards a genuine advert in the mail if the above post by perseous is used.
The Mail print it.. not a chance!!
If the persus post is turned into a leaflet ...I'll happily deliver it around Seaton.
P.S. this site can be a bit childish at times and I am sure a lot of it is down to frustration, behind it I am sure there are still some good people.
Geoff and I are just bonding!! lets see over the following months how many people he/she doesn't agree with..
Quote from: notinshadow on April 20, 2012, 12: PM
The Mail print it.. not a chance!!
Make them either p**s or get off the pot, i.e. get a price get it knocked together right and then submit it as an advertisement and they'll either have to print it or give a reason as to why they won't.
National newspapers carry adverts from the political parties in the run up to general elections so it isn't banned. What reasonable excuse could they give for not printing it that wouldn't expose them as being in the pockets of certain local people or a political party?
Quote from: perseus on April 20, 2012, 12: PM
As grown men on this forum discuss whether or not one called the other an "odious little tw@t", I felt that it was a good time (or an appallingly bad time depending on your take on the afore mentioned spat) to throw my hat into the ring and introduce myself.
Sorry and all that but I notice you mentioning a post or two and not the other couple of hundred Geoff and I have posted.
So what were your views on them?
I'm not remotely interested in name calling or indeed whether or not two people (at least one of whom is on our council) should be behaving in this way. Frankly, the tit for tat personal jibes on this forum are the main reason I have stayed away from posting on here........until now.
Hang on you say in one breath your not interested in name calling etc (nor me by the way, nor am I on the council) but you went to all the effort of joining the site just to mention it..while making your own tit for tat comments in the process..how strange!!then you go on about not joining the site because of it in the past..well ...er...I have only been back posting a couple of weeks, so why didn't you join in all the time I wasn't posting..I think there is a rabbit off here personally.
What does interest me however, is not "odious tw@ts", but odious debt.
I am always interested in odious t****..
Put very simply odious debt is a legal theory that holds that the debt incurred by a regime for purposes that do not serve the best interests of community (of people the regime purports to serve), should not be enforceable.
OK..
Such debts are, thus, considered by this doctrine to be personal debts of the regime that incurred them and not debts of the community affected.
In some respects, the concept is analogous to the invalidity of contracts signed under coercion.
OK
An obvious example of this could be seen in Iraq where the debts racked up by Saddam should not necessarily have to be then sorted out by the Iraqi people.
Is it..
With that we arrive at Hartlepool Borough Council, (although not the entire council) but certainly certain individuals attached to it.
Agreed
When the dust settles after May 3rd, whoever does find themselves seated in that council chamber may well find themselves on the wrong end of odious debt of the kind that will shock Hartlepudlians to their core.
OK.
Let's look again. Odious debt is incurred by a regime for purposes that do not serve the best interests of the community.
OK
That could be construed for example to include the setting up of a community interest company and/or charity, and squandering a load of money with little or no benefit to the residents the CIC was allegedly set up to help. (Apart from a small number of beneficiaries who seemingly gained a LOT).
Agreed
It could be construed to include money spent on a magazine that literally the second it lands on people's doormats 9 times out of 10 is then put straight into their bin.
I read it then bin it.
It might include a cafe that is frequented by literally NONE of the thousands of people that I know in the town.
Is it open yet and who is running it.
It could include moving £200,000 from a national recognized organized that has served the people of the town for decades to an organization that has served SOME in a limited way and in an undoubtedly inferior capacity.
Don't agree..this is why...C.A.B. Stockton I am told only need 15% of their money from the council there, as the rest they are funded from in other ways..so therefore why isn't Hartlepool using the same tactics.
I have emailed C.A.B. Stockton to ask what % they say they get from the council and if I get a reply I will post it here.
I suppose it could also be deemed to include £270,000 of tax payer's money that was used to compensate the ill treatment of council staff by... another member of the council staff?
Have you any proof of that figure or is it hearsay.
Maybe it could even include the £2 Million that will ultimately be spent or a tin shed?
That figure I agree with almost..your a couple of hundred thousand short.
This list of odious debt or overt wasting of public money above could basically go on and on and on.
It has done for years, that why we are on this site in the first place.
On May the 3rd the people of this town MUST wake up to the short comings of certain people seated in our council chamber.
Agreed..
I say 'our' council chamber because it belongs to us,
No it doesn't, SteveL wasn't even allowed to defend himself fro mthe onslaught he received the other week in the meeting..so how can it belong to us.
the people of Hartlepool, not to any one individual or any specific political party.
No the Labout party are the sitting tenents with a long lease and has been that way for decades apart from 2000/2001 when squatters took over while they were on holiday..but they were soon chucked out on their ear.
My suggestion is this. Vote for change, genuine change, whoever that might be. I don't care if that's Hartlepool First, Conservatives of one form or other, liberals or independents. I'll leave that for you to decide, BUT vote for anyone, literally anyone but Labour, even if in the General election you are a Labour voter.
What on earth do you think we have all been chatting about for years on here apart from odius little t****..
It's not for want of trying to rid the town of the scum running it.
Open your eyes and see where a quarter of a century worth of predominantly Labour councilors has got us.
We have had our eyes open for years where have you been.
Look at Baden Street, the situation with the hospital, the community interest companies that appear to being everything BUT what they purport to be, the unemployment, the crime, the high council tax, the millions and millions of pounds that are being wasted year after year.
Tell us something we don't know, rather than collecting what we have all been saying for years and putting it in one place, to make out we have been missing the point for years.
In 1970 Gil Scot Heron sang "The revolution will not be televised".
Really that's nice..
On May the 3rd the BBC will be at the count in Hartlepool because they anticipate the most significant shift in the political landscape in this town for decades.
Yeh right do you really believe that..Labour will still be running thing and I am the first to admit I know little about politics..but even I know that..
Let's make sure it happens. Vote for decency, vote with freedom of thought, vote for change.
Come on then who will you be voting for on May 3rd that's going to make the difference and we might vote that way too..might not though..
Let's make sure we prove Gil Scot Heron wrong.
Who cares about G.S.H. and what they sang about 42 years ago.
Quote from: perseus on April 20, 2012, 03: PM
And there (above) is the problem in a nutshell. A new person who obviously agress with the work done by this site and the people on it is attacked on first post for having the nerve to summarise 90% of what you've trying to highlight for years and i did it in such a way that it actually will make people sit up and take notice (i think) if they read it.
Don't be so silly..you as much new as I am Santa.. ho ho ho.
however, rather than listen to your peers and adapt and utilise what i wrote your first instinct was to go on the offensive presumably because i pointed out that you were behaving like children.
Peers..behave yourself..my first instinct wasn't that at all..my first instinct was to blank you and comment on the lack of advert in the Mail..
My second instinct was to reply to your childish comments regarding Lord Lilley and myself.
you also appear resigned to years of labour rule. if youve given up then move aside and leave it to those who havent. or you could of course hide at your key board calling each other names. its up to you.
My three votes won't be wasted on Labour.. but come May 4th Labour will be running things in the civic sadly if i like it or not..that's life..As for hiding at my keyboard...lol..lol...lol..no mate that won't be me your talking about..ask the Mayor or the Labour lot or the Tories or UKIP or anyone who goes to the council meeting or generally anyone who has ever met me..I am not the hiding type.. I am upfront and honest and have no problem saying my views online, to your face or anywhere else for that matter..you on the other hand..well we know don't we without having to get into a row over it.
I am even thinking of running next time round myself..thinking about it..afterall have you seen some of the lemons running this town..I am sure you have..
Now what I was highlighting was.. that people don't always agree on here and you my friend have helped prove that point nicely...so your no better than Lord Lilley, myself or anyone else that moans at each other on here..get a grip..
Also you forgot to mention who it was you were voting for come May 3rd..UKIP Indy.. which one is it??
Very interesting post Perseus and don't be put off by the banter.
There will always be people who see every conversation as a boxing match that must have a winner and a loser.
In my view, none of us really knows the 'truth' but, through discussion with others, we modify our views and get a little closer to it each day.
It's only after years and years of listening to the views of others and adjusting our own views , little by little, that we finally reach that Eureka moment when we can proudly shout . . . THAT'S IT!
Then we drop dead. . .
It's Life, Jim . . . but not as we know it. ;)
I remember at one stage, HTH used to do a cut-down paper version called The Other Hartbeat which was available as a download for people to print. It seemed to die a death but it was a good idea I thought. Maybe we should resurrect it.
Marky I don't think it's about winners or losers or boxing matches but the rest I agree with totally.
Perseus..
Your using the same tactic as me..although Lord Lilley and myself seldom agree on much, I think my votes have to go his parties way for the same reasons you are applying.
I was accusing anyone of anything, it was a statement of fact.
I don't do catfights either..I simply state my views and opinions. to much some would say..but don't worry, by next week I will have my banning order as usual and everyones happy.
As for uniting sadly and regretably I think the chance PHF had has been wasted in many ways..
I think they should have been doing a lot more before now if they want a right result come May 3rd.
Allison and lilley will get in.. Stevel and Fredc I would like to see get in..
Out of the two standing in my area, I am voting for the women that doesn't look like a geezer, as I think the other lady will do well with the G.L.B.T. voters ..unless the Tories suddenly get their fingers out and pull something out of the bag a bit lively..
perseus, as someone who has taken 5 decades to realise that confrontational behaviour isn`t the best way for me to live a longer life... i can understand your point of view, but, as marky mentions non of us have the answer to everything.
There are bound to be differing views on all sorts of issues that affect Hartlepool & its people, but despite the "Crack, Banter, Bickering, Insults" & at times downright Nastiness, call it what you will, the majority of HTH members have the town at heart & virtually to a man & woman are fed up with the way the town is run.
As or getting the message across to a wider audience, i`m all for it, its the how its done that is important, if it`s a full page Advert in the Mail, i feel sure people would donate to that cause.
Quote from: notinshadow on April 20, 2012, 05: PMAs for uniting sadly and regretably I think the chance PHF had has been wasted in many ways.
I think they should have been doing a lot more before now if they want a right result come May 3rd.
I think PHF is an idea whose time has come. I agree it would have been better to have started earlier but that is always the case and as Lao Tzu said "A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step." If you take forming PHF as the first step then standing candidates in this election is the second step, which still leaves a long, long way to go.
So apart from starting earlier? What are the other "many ways" has PHF wasted their chances?
Brassed off and Not Stephen ..agree 100% with both..
Quote..So apart from starting earlier? What are the other "many ways" has PHF wasted their chances?
I would have started much earlier..
I would have had every door knocked atleast once.
I would have wrote to each household personally.
I would have have had cars with speaker knocking about like someone mentioned the other day.
I would have as many shops, pubs, clubs, lamp posts, houses covered in PHF..
I would have had meeting set up in each area so people could come along and hear more about the party.
I would have explained a long time ago what the party stood for.
I would have had a dirty tricks campain set up long ago..
I wouldn't have been happy to field my daughter or other that have no chance of winning but there to make the numbers up..
I would have told people long ago what it is we actually want to achieve.
I would have told everyman, women and dog that would listen what the rest are doing badly..
I would have made it clear about the corruption in this town
I would have told them all about the voting records of the indys and others pretending not to be labour but really are.
I would have highlighted how PHF are going to do things differently..
I would have done a great deal more to let the people of Hartlepool know where their money is really going than posting on here.
I would have highlighted how Indylabs are taking the p**s out the voters.
I would have had a better website, where you can see the people you are voting for..
I would have had a forum so people can chat to them they are voting for..
I would have driven everyone f***i*g mad with PHF.
That's the start of what I would have done.. and in two years time when I know I will field against the weakest of this years winners, I might put my time where my mouth is and have a go myself.
That's the start of how I would have done it..once I have had ten minutes to think about it i might post more but off the top of my head that';s what I would have done.
For the members new and old, banter should be friendly and we should really stop and listen to the message... perseus was put off by the down right nasty attitudes of people who post on here, not all but some.
Everyone should be welcome as I assume that everyone using this site simply wants what is best for Hartlepool, especially when we are in a bad recession.
Anyone who gets any credit for posting (such as the first post on here) is lashed upon with the aim they will not post anymore. If there is any other point, then it is not getting through, so behaviour modification would be useful.
Maybe we could now work on things up to the election and even better, after it, regardless of the voting and positioning.
I am pleased that new posters have come on here, with messages that need to be seen. There is no need to disect posts but to read, respect and work together. The snipes and knock me downs are not necessary and simply show that the good of this site is brought down by a lack of regulation. However, it is a lot better than it used to be so hopefully we are going in the right direction.
I have summarised some of the problems regarding Full Council on my leaflet. I hope it helps as perseus is right, we need to get the message out to all and sundry in order to really drive for change.
I must highlight that in August 2012 (and this has been mentioned on Hartlepool First website) "Hear 'n' Hartlepool" Group took a petition to the Full Council. We were asking for a full debate and an independent investigation into the running of the Council. It might have sounded harsh but it was needed as is noted on this site.
We should be asking every Councillor who agreed no action to explain themselves. This is what I am doing at the moment (with a letter to Secretary of State) but it needs a town effort.
We should ask: What would the electorate think if they knew this detail?
More and more people are getting angry, and this is especially when noting that there is a ring fencing of funding so that the likes of the CAB losses is agreed. This is wrong. People would be outraged if they knew more of the background.
The only problem with this site is that it allows hateful terms to be used, in relation to sexuality, disability etc. This does not help as it means that ligitimate calls that it simply slates and hates are made.
I suggest that posters think carefully about this and those who do it should stop. If they dont stop, they should be banned as the good of the site gets embroiled in that and it loses the aims of exposing wrong doing.
HTH might just get more national and even local exposure if that is considered and curbed?
Christine like your campain that's to little far to late..seee ya..
Perseus I missed that as I only had a couple of minutes to type what came of the top of my head.
You are right of course, the whole social network was overlooked and I totally get the power of that after seeing how Mayor Drummond has capitalized on it over the years.
One thing I have learned from him..
Also reading through your post highlights many other ways I had not thought off.
Notinshadow, you are obviously very politically aware but I suspect that you have never been involved in a political campaign. There are 44k households in Hartlepool. On average a person can deliver about 200 leaflets per hour. So to cover the whole town with just one leaflet would take 220 man hours. A mammoth task. This is why you rarely see a leaflet from a political party in between elections.
I would work smart not this wishy washy way they all seem to go about it.
Quote from: perseus on April 20, 2012, 07: PM
Or about 75 people 3 hours each? Or 30 odd people half a day? Are there not 30 odd people who frequent this forum who feel strongly enough to help with the distribution side of things? Dont quit already. there isnt a leaflet to deliver. . . yet
You have got the hang of this but I still wouldn't even play it that way personally.
Quote from: Ryehill on April 20, 2012, 06: PM
Notinshadow, you are obviously very politically aware but I suspect that you have never been involved in a political campaign. There are 44k households in Hartlepool. On average a person can deliver about 200 leaflets per hour. So to cover the whole town with just one leaflet would take 220 man hours. A mammoth task. This is why you rarely see a leaflet from a political party in between elections.
Good point Ryehill, many people think it simple to bash out a leaflet and push it through letterboxes. I used to work for a promotions company and we used to organise local events. Arranging venues, printing flyers, delivering flyers, getting radio, tV and press advertising in place. This all takes a huge amount of time and costs a lot of money.
Consider a leaflet for every propertry in Hartlepool, just a simple A4 sized, folded once, black and white, printed both sides would cost in the region of £700 - £800. So in addition to having to work 8 hours a day, 7 days a week for about a month to put them through letterboxes you'd need to find that money (plus 200 an hour? maybe in street houses or blocks of flats but no way you can hit that rate in estates with drives and garden gates).
Once you'd done that then you could start your next programme of knocking on every door. Assuming you knock, wait 20 seconds to see if anyone answers and then move onto the next door you could possibly do 2 doors a minute. If someone answers of course you could easily be there another 30 seconds or another 10 minutes, or anywhere in between. Say you average 5 minutes at doors that people answer and 1 in 10 actually does answer. That gives you an average of around 1 minute per door.
So let's revisit the original calculation but with 60 per hour rather than 200 and round figures it would take you at 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, somewhere in the region of three months to knock on every door.
So now we have someone who can afford to pay £700 for leaflets and then take four months off work and devote 8 hours a day, every day, rain, snow or shine, to delivering leaflets and knocking on doors!
After this you can write 44,000 individual letters (another £700 for paper and printer ink) and then start trudging round the streets for another month to deliver them. Unless you want to post them? So add another £200 for envelopes and another £20,000 for stamps (assuming second class post). Actually you might be able to do a deal with the Post Office and get them bulk delivered but even that's not cheap.
Of course you haven't even started driving round the streets with your loudspeaker car yet, nor have you been in to speak to all the shop owners, publicans and landlords to persuade them to put up your posters. Nor have you been round putting posters on lamposts (and then gone round taking them down again when the council threatens you with legal action if you don't).
So while I think the programme you outline is admirable and would indeed be fantastic I would suggest you take a reality check on how much all this would cost and how long it would take you to do it!
Quote from: Not Stephen Hadow on April 20, 2012, 07: PM
Quote from: Ryehill on April 20, 2012, 06: PM
Notinshadow, you are obviously very politically aware but I suspect that you have never been involved in a political campaign. There are 44k households in Hartlepool. On average a person can deliver about 200 leaflets per hour. So to cover the whole town with just one leaflet would take 220 man hours. A mammoth task. This is why you rarely see a leaflet from a political party in between elections.
Good point Ryehill, many people think it simple to bash out a leaflet and push it through letterboxes. I used to work for a promotions company and we used to organise local events. Arranging venues, printing flyers, delivering flyers, getting radio, tV and press advertising in place. This all takes a huge amount of time and costs a lot of money.
Consider a leaflet for every propertry in Hartlepool, just a simple A4 sized, folded once, black and white, printed both sides would cost in the region of £700 - £800. So in addition to having to work 8 hours a day, 7 days a week for about a month to put them through letterboxes you'd need to find that money (plus 200 an hour? maybe in street houses or blocks of flats but no way you can hit that rate in estates with drives and garden gates).
I wouldn't do it that way..
Once you'd done that then you could start your next programme of knocking on every door. Assuming you knock, wait 20 seconds to see if anyone answers and then move onto the next door you could possibly do 2 doors a minute. If someone answers of course you could easily be there another 30 seconds or another 10 minutes, or anywhere in between. Say you average 5 minutes at doors that people answer and 1 in 10 actually does answer. That gives you an average of around 1 minute per door.
I wouldn't do it that way first either..
So let's revisit the original calculation but with 60 per hour rather than 200 and round figures it would take you at 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, somewhere in the region of three months to knock on every door.
N/A
So now we have someone who can afford to pay £700 for leaflets and then take four months off work and devote 8 hours a day, every day, rain, snow or shine, to delivering leaflets and knocking on doors!
N/A
After this you can write 44,000 individual letters (another £700 for paper and printer ink) and then start trudging round the streets for another month to deliver them. Unless you want to post them? So add another £200 for envelopes and another £20,000 for stamps (assuming second class post). Actually you might be able to do a deal with the Post Office and get them bulk delivered but even that's not cheap.
N/A
Of course you haven't even started driving round the streets with your loudspeaker car yet, nor have you been in to speak to all the shop owners, publicans and landlords to persuade them to put up your posters. Nor have you been round putting posters on lamposts (and then gone round taking them down again when the council threatens you with legal action if you don't).
I would use common sense..
So while I think the programme you outline is admirable and would indeed be fantastic I would suggest you take a reality check on how much all this would cost and how long it would take you to do it!
Mr Allison that why really without PHF you time as councillor should have come to an end..your outdated and should have retired long ago..and by all accounts you were not that good at your peak respectfully.
NIS, so how would you do it........?
A lot simplier than you guys are going about it that is for sure.lol
Lets have a look at how your doing it, as that is what really matters right now..
So you, Geoff and a couple of others have a sit down and make a few plans..
You then try and gets some people to come along to the Grand to have an open day and blag anyone you can to stand to make the numbers up..
Big mistake...I think..you can feel the rush to it all.
Then you chat away on the phone and a few email later, you have a game plan.. shocking..
You have to put a package together..
Look at what the Labour party do best and copy..find out what the Labour party do worst and improve..
None of it's rocket science is it but you guys are not working smart.
Come May 4th the truth will out. Labour 1st and the rest won't matter as you won't have the numbers to do f*c* all about it.
Quote from: perseus on April 20, 2012, 07: PMi strongly urge you to listen to NIS ... ....
Delighted to listen!
However, all he has actually said so far is "I wouldn't do it that way"
I'm sure every political organisation in the world would love to know how you can do what he suggests with limited manpower and on a shoestring budget. Please NIS tell us all how to knock on every door, write to each household personally, get cars with speakers, cover shops, pubs, clubs, lamp posts and houses with posters, obtain venues for meetings and make people aware of these meetings. Seriously, I'd love to know?
If you had wanted to know that badly you would have asked a long time ago..
You're gone at the game..old hat..spent force..ready for pipe and slippers...sit down..park up ..have and have a cup of tea is the best advice I can offer you.
If you really want to see how I go about it you will have to wait..but I would give myself time and you lot didn't and it is a crucial mistake on you part.
Quote from: notinshadow on April 20, 2012, 08: PMA lot simplier than you guys are going about it that is for sure.lol
Circular argument here. WHAT would you do. It's easy to critisise and say you could do better but without actually saying how you'd do it!
I could do a great deal better..I honestly believe that..
You don't think smart..Steve you really don't.. huff and puff all you like but the facts are the facts.. you eye is on getting in the chamber first and that's part of the problem..it means the world to you..it makes you feel alive and worthy..you should have took your eye of that ball and put it on the ball to getting there.
If you have massive costs leaflets, postage etc ..how do you drastically reduce those ex's..think about it yourself..
The answer in part is to get someone else to fund it..not rocket science but you guys rushed it all so spunked your chance.
Steve and I don't really want the same thing..he wants to get in the chamber for the Kudos and I would want to get in the chamber to raise some hell..different goals.
I want to see Labour out but right now I'm sitting back and enjoying the fireworks in this thread. ;D
Quote from: notinshadow on April 20, 2012, 08: PM
I could do a great deal better..I honestly believe that.
OK, you are the master. But once again HOW?
Quote from: notinshadow on April 20, 2012, 08: PMyou eye is on getting in the chamber first and that's part of the problem..it means the world to you..it makes you feel alive and worthy
Interesting that you have such insights into how someone else apparently thinks? In addition to being a master political tactician you must also be a highly qualified psychoanalyst and motivational theory expert. You are definitely wasted on a local message board like this one.
Quote from: notinshadow on April 20, 2012, 08: PM
If you have massive costs leaflets, postage etc ..how do you drastically reduce those ex's..think about it yourself..
The answer in part is to get someone else to fund it..not rocket science but you guys rushed it all so s**n*ed your chance.
Great idea, wish I'd thought of it! Of course the problem is HOW do you get someonelse to fund it?
The bottom line with all your posts comes down to that one word "HOW" and you have no intention of answering that question because you don't know. As with many trolls on boards like this you are only interested in making provocative statements to get a response. When challenged you then retreat to the classic position of targeting your insults onto an individual by making the remarks personal and insulting. to paraphrase the old saying "Those who can, do. Those who can't, troll about it on internet message boards"
OK, you are the master. But once again HOW?
No not at all but I do have common sense.
Interesting that you have such insights into how someone else apparently thinks? In addition to being a master political tactician you must also be a highly qualified psychoanalyst and motivational theory expert. You are definitely wasted on a local message board like this one.
It not how you think but how you act..2 different thing..
Great idea, wish I'd thought of it! Of course the problem is HOW do you get someonelse to fund it?
Ask them and give them something back in return..
The bottom line with all your posts comes down to that one word "HOW" and you have no intention of answering that question because you don't know. As with many trolls on boards like this you are only interested in making provocative statements to get a response.
Nonsense..
When challenged you then retreat to the classic position of targeting your insults onto an individual by making the remarks personal and insulting.
No honest is the word you are looking for.
to paraphrase the old saying "Those who can, do. Those who can't, troll about it on internet message boards
What!!! I am at work now so you will have to wait longer for replies..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MODq81_cDKI
Agreed Sir
Wolf?
I think GL is a fox!
Wanna pop round to dip in my hotub GL (see adds to the right) wear the fetching yellow number.......
Quote from: perseus on April 21, 2012, 12: AM
Its genuinely frustrating though. the people on here profess to want change in the chamber, there are (potentially) some good people on here who could make a difference for the better in the town, but it would appear you'd rather spend time with online in fighting than pool your collective resources and have a proper crack at solving the towns issues. tragic really.
Many of us have tried but unfortunately the moment you propose something that the ruling class on here don't like you are shot down in flames and called a plant.
As you quickly found out. It is easy to lose heart on here
I have seen that time and time again on here over the years.
You are bang on right though..
Quote from: The Shadow on April 21, 2012, 12: AM
Many of us have tried but unfortunately the moment you propose something that the ruling class on here don't like you are shot down in flames and called a plant.
But you are a plant-well some form of vegetable at least.
As for me I don't 'rule' anybody. Nor am I connected to any party. Indeed if the old forum was still up you could find many clashes between me and Kipperdip/SA.
You will get the same treatment.
I agree with that MK1 you hate everyone politically equally.lol..
Quotehating everyone politically equally
I feel a new signature coming on :)
Quote from: perseus on April 21, 2012, 01: AM
Well unless i see some actual collective ACTION led by PHF on here tonight/tomorrow i think its safe to say my stint on here will be short and i along with tens of thousands of others will remain tucked away in the shaddows getting along with our lives and not giving a toss about who sits in that chamber. There was an opportunity tonight to work together and try to GENUINELY facilitate change. Unfortunately the two main people who profess to genuinely want it have opted to either make excuses for why we shouldnt/cant or ignore the most viewed thread (in relation to time its been on here)in a while altogether. . putting hartlepool first? Who UKIPidding?
Do not quit Sir, I am enjoying your posts. You and notinshadow are the type of members this forum needs more of. The type that will actually dare to question the things put on here without blindly following it.
Quote from: mk1.1 on April 21, 2012, 01: AM
Lets face it is those behind PHF were as astute and committed as they think to bringing down labour they would do it by winning hearts and minds in the streets and by speaking to real people who do real things in the town,
YES
why isn't there a group outside every major public building in the town campaigning for real change, why isn't there a very open and frank press campaign from them, why don't I have leaflets through my door, or have the elections caught you lot by surprise?
YES
In truth any website belonging to a group of individuals that is trying to affect genuine change in Hartlepool would be fighting tooth and nail to be seen as the voice of truth, integrity and honesty.
YES
In reality what we have is a group of posters who use dirty tricks, sail very close to slander and defamation, will be critical of literally anything the local authority does or that benefits any body that could be seen as sympathetic to the Labour party.
Lets be honest the Labour lot are as bent as a nine bob note.
They also appear to be in possession of a great deal of highly specialist information, or at least 50% of the facts surrounding any number of issues, and then make up the rest as they go along.
The % is wrong.
It is worth noting that precedent exists in UK law that website owners are made to be liable for the content of forum posts, especially when the disclaimer on this forum is so weak a good barrister would glance at it and p**s himself if it was used as defence against any allegations.
And doesn't bother me in the slightest..a barrister wouldn't be required as at best it would be a 4a or 5 public order offence so dealt with at magistrates. thats handy as this site has a corrupt one on the firm.
What I find amusing is that this site allows posters to hide behing pseudonyms, but the official PHF site (rather than the venomous cousin) refuses to post articles without being able to verify the id of the sender, funny that one uses some proper guidelines and one uses a generic cut and paste disclaimer.
Different owners different rules.
One of the things I find strange is that the deluded think their political party will make a difference, because as much as I agree with the philosphy of 'Putting Hartlepool First' while one of it's candidates owns a website that exists to mainly attack and throw cowardly abuse at voluntary and community groups and those who currently hold power the whole thing seems a sham.
I love the West View project...lol. makes me laugh that you lot are talking over from the C.A.B...and you want to talk about corruption..
How many of the PHF candidates are related by the way?
A couple I can think off.. hang on ..Chris Simmons labour...his daughter married the leader of the council henry 8th Labour an shes ruinning this time round for Labour.. and his ex wife ..Marj Labour..
Isn't that kind of nepotism what a certain organsiation is having it's name dragged through the mud for by this site that is an alleged paragon of virtue?
Read above and have another go at that..
Finally for those of you who believe that the site has more visitors than the local paper has readers, have you ever asked Steve for his stats and how they are broken down?
Don't care..
Are those visitors unique IP hits per month, clicks on the forum, total number of hits on each forum thread? Oh and how many of the unique visitors arrived at this site as the result of a google search for an external item that has been linked on here or a random series of hartlepool related words? It isn't as big or as important as it thinks.
Still don't care..
NEXT..
There seems to be some very basic mistakes being made here.
Let me try to put it in a nutshell.
Quite a few of the regular posters are engaged in a political campaign.
As a result they have limited their input so as not to upset the recent influx of plants and placemen from the major parties. They have decided not to involve HTH or guide its content to PHF party advantage.
Thus it falls on those like me to fend off the slurs and calumny of the undercover lickspittles.
I am happy to take up the slack and to be honest the task is much easier than I at first thought.
As one of the true impartials here I can say there are many more Tory plants than Labour ones.
I salute the courage of one of the latest (multiple ID) posters who has decided to speak up for the Manor Mafia. A task that seems to be beyond the principles and has apparently fallen on the shoulders of a lowly hanger-on.
Quote from: mk1.1 on April 21, 2012, 01: AM
I applaud your use of language that is far beyond typical hartlepudlian dialect.
I owe it all to George Galloway.
To slightly misquote him Tory/Labour are two cheeks of the same ar*se.
MK1.1 let me call you MK2 to make life a little easier..
MK1 doesn't favour any party he just calls it as he see it and I think that's very fair.
I have chaged my mind today where my three votes are going..
It was PHF but they don't answer any of the question I have and set out to call me names and attack me for not hanging onto every word so I might vote Tory now afterall.
Do people understand why I think PHF (with G.L. & S.A.) ego will pull the party apart down the line.
I can only point out this is not the PHF site. Any direct offers of help should go to the other site.
HTH is not PHF. One may be the issue of the other but the mother is not the daughter.
They walk hand in hand though these days MK1
Quote from: notinshadow on April 21, 2012, 01: AM
Do people understand why I think PHF (with G.L. & S.A.) ego will pull the party apart down the line.
They all have ego or they would not stand.
The choice is simple.
You can feed the ego of the incumbents and their hangers on (and by default approve of the self-enrichment of the ruling clans) or you can replace them with new egos who will take time(and thus cost less until you can vote them out) to set up any new empires.
In short do you want to be eaten by a Lion or a Tiger?
Or the ones helping the West View crowd to give us a second rate C.A.B. service so you can line your pockets with our money..like HFF MR ect.
Quote from: mk1.1 on April 21, 2012, 01: AM
,which makes me ask how does a site get physically attacked? Can someone just reach in and turn it off?
More or less yes.
Google the phrase DDoS attack
Good points MK1 & MK2
MK2 been given the shovel..
We were just starting to bond as well..
Who's email did he use ..
It's sad init..but what do you do..
I want change, I would vote for change, but how in Gods name can the two of them be trusted to make the change, when they won't even answer reasonable, well thought out question asked in a reasonable manner.
They will huff and puff that we are not asking reasonably, but hey you do get sick of asking question just to get blanked or insulted.
I don't mind insults..but even them are the same ones time and time again and I want new ones to go with the new party.
It's Stevel and Fredc I feel for, as I know they want change and have put their best foot forward to help make that change.
We as the voting public don't have to ask permission if we can ask questions they don't want to answer.
I have waited two years for a reply from geoff..2 years..quite al ong time to not get an answer and he has the cheek to dig out Drummond or Well..
I have emailed both more than once and always get a reply even if I don't like the answer...
By the way my mrs owes Sports Relief £20...as I got to 200 posts..
It's odd that people somehow expect a personal reply from people on here as if they are watching the forum 24/7. While others are complaining that more action is needed and complaining about the lack of response, others are out there knocking on doors and leaflet dropping trying to convince people that change is necessary.
I've been involved with HTH for nearly 10 years and I always thought that the establishment of a new party was the inevitable result. However, HTH is NOT PHF. As mk1 said, one may be the result of the other – and that's only partly true – but the two are not the same.
How could they be? This is an open forum and it allows people from all political views to post; HTH even offers to publicise the leaflets of all parties – not something the PHF site is going to do.
HTH is meant to be a conduit through which all sorts can air their views – something that was sorely missing in the town beforehand. The main site is there to provide an alternative view to that presented by the sugar-coated, PR infested Hartbeat and the pathetic output of the local newspaper.
We've often been criticised ourselves for criticising others while not throwing our own hat into the ring. An odd accusation really, since no one tells the editor of the Daily Mirror to stand for Parliament.
Even so, against the better judgement of some of my HTH colleagues I decided to take the plunge.
Since doing so, I have received 'we know where you live' PMs on this forum; I've been warned that Ms Wilcox's relatives are ready to beat the crap out of me - after the election in case the publicity affected the Labour vote. (I didn't actually write the Manor Residents article by the way but what the hell) Oh yes, and I've been the target of a tirade of abuse from S.A.B. from behind the safety of the front bench while the most pathetic Chairman of the Council HBC has surely ever had not only allowed the abuse to continue but concentrated all his effort on trying to make sure I didn't respond.
I've decided to stand myself because, after 10 years of trying not to use the word, I've finally decided what the Hartlepool Labour Group is – pure and simple. Funnily enough, I've also decided that they are a disgrace to the Labour Party.
People who enrich themselves by riding on the back of the poorest, the most vulnerable and most deprived frankly make me want to throw up. As do those Cuckoo Councillors who coordinate their voting through text messages during council meetings. I've got the list of those 25 out of 25 votes somewhere and when I find the time I'll post it on here but you'd be better off watching the body language in the Council Chamber to truly appreciate the mating call of the Cuckoo.
The worst of it is that the Labour Group is now in the hands of some very nasty people, high on the power they believe they now have and busy screwing the public purse for all it is worth. They have reached this position by bullying and threatening members of their own party who themselves have allowed it because they are empty shells of people with no balls to stand up for what's right.
Anyway Perseus (and Fraser). I'm sorry if you think people aren't doing enough but it's 3:38 am. My feet are aching through walking the streets, my knuckles are aching through knocking on doors and my PC is overheating from spending the last few hours printing leaflets and catching up with my e-mail.
It's great to talk the talk on the forum sometimes but some of us have been too busy lately walking the walk.
Now I'm going to bed.
PS@ Fraser - I wouldn't use up too much energy wondering whether to vote Tory or Labour, the effect is the same and frankly, you'd stand more chance of getting something out of it if you put your crosses on a lottery ticket - I think the odds are better at 14m:1
Quote from: steveL on April 21, 2012, 03: AM
I've been warned that Ms Wilcox's relatives are ready to beat the crap out of me - after the election in case the publicity affected the Labour vote.
Ooh err missus...........good job this gang of modern day Fagins didn't get their hands on the person who stuck multiple copies of the Private Eye Article in every town centre Bus Shelter over the bank holiday weekend.
Now that cheeky chappie would be a prime target for Angie's band of 'wet job' operatives.
Gob s**te wankers who's thighs slap together as they waddle like their Queen Bee.
Quote from: steveL on April 21, 2012, 03: AM
It's odd that people somehow expect a personal reply from people on here as if they are watching the forum 24/7. While others are complaining that more action is needed and complaining about the lack of response, others are out there knocking on doors and leaflet dropping trying to convince people that change is necessary.
Excuse me when we started asking the question your leader was online..infact both of your leaders were online..
I've been involved with HTH for nearly 10 years and I always thought that the establishment of a new party was the inevitable result. However, HTH is NOT PHF. As mk1 said, one may be the result of the other – and that's only partly true – but the two are not the same.
How could they be? This is an open forum and it allows people from all political views to post; HTH even offers to publicise the leaflets of all parties – not something the PHF site is going to do.
HTH is meant to be a conduit through which all sorts can air their views – something that was sorely missing in the town beforehand. The main site is there to provide an alternative view to that presented by the sugar-coated, PR infested Hartbeat and the pathetic output of the local newspaper.
We've often been criticised ourselves for criticising others while not throwing our own hat into the ring. An odd accusation really, since no one tells the editor of the Daily Mirror to stand for Parliament.
Even so, against the better judgement of some of my HTH colleagues I decided to take the plunge.
Since doing so, I have received 'we know where you live' PMs on this forum; I've been warned that Ms Wilcox's relatives are ready to beat the crap out of me - after the election in case the publicity affected the Labour vote. (I didn't actually write the Manor Residents article by the way but what the hell) Oh yes, and I've been the target of a tirade of abuse from S.A.B. from behind the safety of the front bench while the most pathetic Chairman of the Council HBC has surely ever had not only allowed the abuse to continue but concentrated all his effort on trying to make sure I didn't respond.
People don't normally bother telling you first they are coming to get you, they turn up out the blue, that's what causes the fear..as for Richardson and A/B well you have given it to them both at times on here, so if you have to take a bit now and again that's life. Politics is a dirty business as you all say Steve.
I've decided to stand myself because, after 10 years of trying not to use the word, I've finally decided that the Hartlepool Labour Group is corrupt – pure and simple. Funnily enough, I've also decided that they are a disgrace to the Labour Party.
They are..
People who enrich themselves by riding on the back of the poorest, the most vulnerable and most deprived frankly make me want to throw up. As do those Cuckoo Councillors who coordinate their voting through text messages during council meetings. I've got the list of those 25 out of 25 votes somewhere and when I find the time I'll post it on here but you'd be better off watching the body language in the Council Chamber to truly appreciate the mating call of the Cuckoo.
I have seen that body language many time in the chamber and in my street.
The worst of it is that the Labour Group is now in the hands of some very nasty people, high on the power they believe they now have and busy screwing the public purse for all it is worth. They have reached this position by bullying and threatening members of their own party who themselves have allowed it because they are empty shells of people with no balls to stand up for what's right.
Yes..it's a dirty business.
Anyway Perseus (and Fraser). I'm sorry if you think people aren't doing enough but it's 3:38 am.
WE...no we in it.. only the two at the top..
My feet are aching through walking the streets, my knuckles are aching through knocking on doors and my PC is overheating from spending the last few hours printing leaflets and catching up with my e-mail.
It's great to talk the talk on the forum sometimes but some of us have been too busy lately walking the walk.
Steve there are plenty on here would help but no one ever needs the help..
Now I'm going to bed.
Goodnight..
PS@ Fraser - I wouldn't use up too much energy wondering whether to vote Tory or Labour, the effect is the same and frankly, you'd stand more chance of getting something out of it if you put your crosses on a lottery ticket - I think the odds are better at 14m:1
Hey I get answer from the Tories, I don't need answers from Labour as I already know the ones answers I need to know..and your two leaders think they are so high and might they don't have to give answers to "Odious Little t****" like me..17 stone never seems little to me..I need biggers dinners.
Look for his username..
Lord Elphus whatever it is...the name from the muppet show..
I don't really get were you're coming from, Perseus. Those on here who have taken the PHF route will probably already be out there doing what they can as Steve pointed out. I don't think they have much choice - if the other parties are shoving leaflets through doors they will have to do the same otherwise people will say 'I never even got a leaflet from them'
If you want to draft some sort of generic letter then I'm sure the guys at HTH would upload it so people could download and print a few copies out to distribute themselves or you could do what I've done and sign up as a regular columist on the site.
HTH may have it faults but then I always wonder where we would be without it. The fact that Labour loathes the site and the people behind it tells me everything I need to know.
Been away on business, new job Aberdeen, but it seems very lively.
I have to say, and I know its late welcome perseus.
Your 1st post was truly excellent and hit the nail on the head.
The vast majority of people on here recognise the town is being run by people (a council within a council) that are only interested in lining their own pockets.
That 1st post said it all!
Is there any chance of it being published??? I would put £50 in right away!
http://youtu.be/txp19ZNtFn8
I like that post for lots of reasons..one being it made me chuckle to myself at the end.
It's a complete waste of the resources available and that's the shame of it to me..
PHF have one bite at it..
Perseus, I would be delighted to meet with you and any other person to consider a strategy to improve Hartlepool. I agree that this site is a vehicle for information but assassination also.
So if you or anyone would like to meet, please let me know.
Interesting that when a group of people get off their backsides and start a new party that aims to take national party politics out of Hartlepool Council Chamber the overwhelming response on HTH, where such a party has been called for many, many times, is to attack two of the founders of that party and start to talk about missed opoportunities and how in two years time another group should be formed to do exactly what PHF are trying to do. PHF has former Labour, Tory and UKIP members, PHF may even have some former Lib-Dems but who cares, the vast majority of PHF members appear to be people who have previously had no party political allegience what-so-ever. It seems to me that most of the trolls attacking PHF are actually either members of one of the National Political Parties for whom anyone threatening their party must be attacked or people who want an organisation like PHF but only if they are in charge of it themselves. Well if these people had got off their arses and set up such an organisation then maybe they would have done a better job than PHF is doing. However, the undeniable fact is that PHF Candidates are on the ballot paper in every ward in Hartlepool on May 3rd and are offering the people of Hartlepool an alternative they have never had before. The trolls attacking PHF on this site are not offering the voters anything other than more of the same old discredited national parties and cuckoo independents! At least PHF are trying, what are the attackers on HTH Forum doing? Just trying to pull down PHF because they don't like two of the people who set it up! and why are they doing this? I have no idea, but one thing is for sure, they are not interested in putting Hartlepool First are they?
Now I am deleting my user name and going to bed. I have to be up early in the morning to deliver more "useless leaflets" and "fail to get my message accross" to the electorate. The leaflets may be useless and I may very well fail to get the message across but at least I'm trying and not sitting behind my keyboard critisising people who are out trying to do something. Those who can, do. Those who just want to critisise and pull down the efforts of others, become internet message board trolls.
Night Night
I'm not even going to read you post, it's simple not worth it, as I bet I could have a good guess at the comments/digs it will consist off.
Same old same old..that's why you need pipe and slipper, call it all a day.
But I do know I am not voting for you, nor my mrs or daughter, so it's only three votes but the Tories can have them..your problem is.. if to many others do the same you are proper f*c*ed.
;D Yes that's about what I expected.. ;D
Well it will be intresting to see how he does on May 3rd and the party as a whole. It will be interesting to watch how the party grows in the future. I would be interesting to see if they kick Labour out anytime soon.
It will be intersting to watch it play out.
Has anyone every jumbled the leaders of PHF initials together yet!! :-X
It would probably cost a grand for a page.
You can see why they won't run it really, I think someone said the council spend 300 grand a year with the Mail.
If you or I was spending 300k of other people money with a local newspaper we would expect the same.
Quote from: LookslikeTORYagain on April 26, 2012, 06: PM
If you or I was spending 300k of other people money with a local newspaper we would expect the same.
Maybe you should take a step back and think about that one!
Ok took a step back and had a think about it..not sure I either get your point Steve or I have missed the point myself with my previous post.
Let me know your thoughts.
Most of the money spent by HBC with the mail is spent on advertisements and statutory announcements. This is something that HBC is required to do, not something they simply choose to do.
You seem to be of the mind that this transaction is the reason for the close relationship between the Mail and HBC. In fact HBC have little option but to go to the Mail with these publications, so there is no obligation on the Mail other than to publish the information.
Your post also seemed to suggest that as it is public money that the HBC are spending at the Mail, that somehow that entitled them to expect more from the transaction. Something I didn't think you would agree with.
Whatever the reason for the unhealthy relationship between the Mail and HBC I doubt it's that simple.
Quote from: Stevef on April 26, 2012, 09: PM
Most of the money spent by HBC with the mail is spent on advertisements and statutory announcements. This is something that HBC is required to do, not something they simply choose to do.
I didn't for a moment think it was anything other than how you have put it.
You seem to be of the mind that this transaction is the reason for the close relationship between the Mail and HBC.
I bet 300k worth of orders helps you get what you want with the Mail or any other medium size business in the town.
In fact HBC have little option but to go to the Mail with these publications, so there is no obligation on the Mail other than to publish the information.
Ok..If I had a business that you spent 300k a year on, I would keep that in mind, when printing stories about you Steve in a poor light.
Your post also seemed to suggest that as it is public money that the HBC are spending at the Mail, that somehow that entitled them to expect more from the transaction. Something I didn't think you would agree with.
It's public money the council are spending.. full stop..your over egging it with anything else.
Whatever the reason for the unhealthy relationship between the Mail and HBC I doubt it's that simple.
I don't suggest anything else..
Thanks for the reply Steve.
The way I see it...the business the Mail gets is from the Council and not the Labour Group. If the LG all go on a fishing trip and drown (heaven forbid) the council would still carry on spending the money so why this link with the LG? If I was Joy Yates, I'd be smelling the coffee and think of those falling circulation figures.