This is shocking - £1m for car expenses? I can't be the only one who thinks this has the look of a rather crude way of supplementing salaries through the back door and isn't it strange how the same car that would attract 46p mileage in Redcar would somehow generate 60p mileage in Stockton? And how many personal journeys is the taxpayer paying for because I think even the lowest of these rates would cover a person's petrol costs completely.
ALL IN THIS TOGETHER?
http://www.hartlepoolpost.co.uk (http://www.hartlepoolpost.co.uk)
It would be very interesting to see what they are classing as "business miles" as commuting to a permanent place of work is not an allowable claim for tax free mileage allowance.
Don't forget the amount is supposed to reflect the total running costs including wear and tear, servicing and depreciation.
Which is not to defend HBC, every company I have worked for has paid the official claimable rate exactly.
(/The official rate might sound generous until you have to buy that extra set of tyres, brake pads, service etc.)
I would have thought allowing more than that would be a taxable benefit.
Quote from: Stig of the Seaton Dump on July 09, 2012, 12: PM
I would have thought allowing more than that would be a taxable benefit.
As is claiming mileage allowance for commuting to a permanent place of work, hence my query above.
A nicely worded FOI (not asking for details of specific individuals) from somebody with enough free time on their hands could be interesting.
Quote from: Donkey Kong on July 09, 2012, 11: AM
It would be very interesting to see what they are classing as "business miles" as commuting to a permanent place of work is not an allowable claim for tax free mileage allowance.
It is a bit of a pain having to leave your fifedom of Owton Manor to pop into the Town Hall to apply for your grants. I presume the milage money helps alleviate the pain!
Anyway who is being lined up for the fat juicy position about to be lobbed Angie's way?
Which relative has dibbs on it?
I think the point is that the calculation by the Inland Revenue includes running costs as well as fuel and they have calculated this to be 45p. Wear on tyres doesn't only occur when on council business, you know, so the idea that expenses should wholly cover replacement tyres is a bit of a cheek. ;)
If it costs £1m in mileage it would cost £2m by taxis. Mileage is a standard issue, you can't expect officers to go to Northallerton on a bike, just leave it you wan*ers.
Quote from: testicles on July 09, 2012, 06: PM
If it costs £1m in mileage it would cost £2m by taxis.
So you/they are doing us a favour then?
Quote from: testicles on July 09, 2012, 06: PM
Mileage is a standard
I believe the 'bleeding obvious' bit you missed is that this allowance is paid at the very top of the scale.
It may be many things but 'standard' is not one of them.
just leave it you wan*ers.
[/quote]
surely in this day of internet, conference calls the actual need for people to do as many miles "on business" has receded, most stuff could be done online. obviously social services and the like still need to actually visit, but how many trips out at the tax payers expense are just excuses to leave the office.
Quote from: Donkey Kong on July 09, 2012, 11: AM
It would be very interesting to see what they are classing as "business miles" as commuting to a permanent place of work is not an allowable claim for tax free mileage allowance.
My understanding of the rules are that you can not claim from your home to and from your place of work or the first 20 miles (not sure about the number of miles) to your first business appointment, thereafter you can claim.
If it is cut to 20p a mile and staff find they are making a loss then they won't use their own cars and we will have to pay for them to use taxi's and buses.
While they are travelling they will need paying for that time, so paying 45p a mile may be a lot cheaper than paying for a bike ride.
The council do a lot of home visits to assess peoples needs, something that can't be done on the internet or phone.
In another authority there was a mileage dispute so the employee exercised her right to travel on a home visit by taking 2 buses each way at the cost of £4.80 and spent nearly 4[£45] hours out of the office. Had she used her car she would have been back within 1 hour, now you tell me mileage is not good value ?
Quote from: testicles on July 10, 2012, 01: AM
In another authority there was a mileage dispute so the employee exercised her right to travel on a home visit by taking 2 buses each way at the cost of £4.80 and spent nearly 4[£45] hours out of the office. Had she used her car she would have been back within 1 hour, now you tell me mileage is not good value ?
I used to be like that at work.
If a boss upset me I made sure I did the job in the most awkward way possible just to teach him a lesson.
Now explain why the upkeep of a car in Hartlepool requires an allowance greater than anywhere else.
Surely you are not saying Hartlepool is a 'World Class' authority that has managed to get better value by giving away more money than the norm?
I can safely say that the vast majority of those claiming the mileage never get anywhere near the poor and the sick.
It is a bit like every motorist who gets caught speeding claims they were on the way to visit a poor crippled blind old granny who needs the use of the car to stay alive-bollocks!
By the way using someone on 11 quid an hour to plead your case of giving money to the already well paid is not a wise move.
I also suggest the local Taxi firms would do you a deal that would be considerably less than the 3,800 quid a day you lot suck out of the system.
I think that is basically the point of the story i.e. 45p is the approved rate and if there is a genuine case to pay more then why isn't that increased rate consistent across authorities.
I would think that where a job consists substantially of home visits then there would be a good case for the use of a pool car.
. . . and why do 80 local authorities, which is about a third of the total, manage to get by paying the approved rate.
I think you forget how many people are using their own cars for your benefit, i reckon about 250 everyday. If they didn't then the authority would grind to a halt. Using taxis would be much more expensive and time consuming and earning £11 an hour is much less than a scrounger with 5 kids gets on the dole.
Dunno, you would have to take that up with your 3 councillors ?
Quote from: testicles on July 10, 2012, 10: AM
I think you forget how many people are using their own cars for your benefit
I reckon that people are using their own cars because they
know a good thing when they see it.
Quote from: testicles on July 10, 2012, 10: AM
earning £11 an hour is much less than a scrounger with 5 kids gets on the dole.
Scrounger with 5 kids/scrounger on 11 quid an hour.
Both the same.
Quote from: testicles on July 10, 2012, 01: AM
In another authority there was a mileage dispute so the employee exercised her right to travel on a home visit by taking 2 buses each way at the cost of £4.80 and spent nearly 4[£45] hours out of the office. Had she used her car she would have been back within 1 hour, now you tell me mileage is not good value ?
I can not find any area of Hartlepool where you would need to use 2 busses to get there from the Civic Centre.
Nor can I find a bus journey of 1 hour within Hartlepool.
To get as far as (say) Billingham would take you 30 mins max
Please explain how the scenario you used as an example would apply in Hartlepool.
I also think your example uses the time spent with the client as if it was journey time.
Have you got a breakdown where we can see journey time and time spent with the client?
Perseus, all authorities vary.
A mean authority would pay 45p, most cars cost 20p per mile to run.
Then you have to add on maintenance which doubles it. My daughter works for a north east authority, her car insurance doubled when she declared she was using the car for home visits with certain post codes, the authority take this into account when calculating mileage allowance. She gets nothing toward her insurance.
If no one had cars you would have to provide them at a greater cost.
The bus would be a handicap, you can't take private documents and 30 files on a bus.
If a Councillor has a meeting 30 miles away he has to be delivered there, usually by an officer.
That's why mileage mounts up.
MK1, if you had any common sense you would be dangerous.
If a home visitor has 5 calls to do in a day how would she get to Wynyard then Clavering then Seaton then West View then Greatham without taking 7-11 buses.
It is impossible, the buses don't cover the whole town, are you a complete numpty ?
People who earn £11 an hour are not scroungers they are workers and deserve every penny of it.
I imagine you have 7 kids and claim the usual £43,000 a year, correct ?
"If a Councillor has a meeting 30 miles away he has to be delivered there, usually by an officer"
?????? Can`t the Councillor drive himself??? If not, then does the office claim the mileage allowance?
The table given could have been made more revealing if it had included the number of council employees, and perhaps the number claiming mileage allowance.
For instance, for Hartlepool with a council staff full-time numbers of 3,500, one million pounds equates to about £290 pounds each per year, or about 600 miles driven.
However if only 250 staff are claiming mileage allowance then this becomes £4000 each, or about 8000 miles driven!
Compare this with, say, Liverpool (taken at random) where there are apparantly about 9000 council staff, getting around 1.5 million pounds car allowance.
Also there are 445,000 population in the area that the Liverpool council serves.
A ratio of 49 to 1 member of public to council employeee.
Here it is a ratio of about 26 to 1.
Anyway, most of the cost of running a car is the standing charge which consists of depreciation, capital cost, tax. insurance etc. The running costs, i.e. petrol, tyres, service and replacements are relatively lower and less than the 45 pence per mile quoted.
In other words, employers are paying not just their staff`s motoring (running) costs but also payment towards the benefit of having a staff member who can (at the drop of a hat) use their own vehicle in the service of the council/employer.
Here is a breakdown of costs by the AA, although it is 2 years out of date.
http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/advice/advice_rcosts_petrol_table.jsp
If mileage allowances are being abused by the employee, or the employer can find other cheaper/more efficient ways of obtaining the same service then they should do so.
Quote from: testicles on July 10, 2012, 03: PM
MK1, if you had any common sense you would be dangerous.
If a home visitor has 5 calls to do in a day how would she get to Wynyard then Clavering then Seaton then West View then Greatham without taking 7-11 buses.
If I were doing it I would plan it so the visits were in order rather than your way of hopping from Seaton to West View and then back to Owton Manor.
Reason is wasted on you because you obviously have a vested interest here and will fight tooth and nail to defend your perk.
Quote from: testicles on July 10, 2012, 03: PM
It is impossible, the buses don't cover the whole town, are you a complete numpty ?
I would say the 'numpty' is the man saying everyone on this perk is an angel of mercy attending to the sick and dying. Some are but the majority do it because it brings them extra money and gets them some slack unsupervised time.
Quote from: testicles on July 10, 2012, 03: PM
People who earn £11 an hour are not scroungers they are workers and deserve every penny of it.
Not so. I could give you many examples of 11 quid an hour parasites.
Quote from: testicles on July 10, 2012, 03: PM
I imagine you have 7 kids and claim the usual £43,000 a year, correct ?
You should never post in anger as your true identity spills out.
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Oh, I almost forgot-you are wrong!
Rabbit, not all Councillors can drive so if an officer takes him then the officer claims the allowance for his vehicle.
It could be cut to 45p if the officers and councillors wanted it to be.
Other authorities that give 45p might also give other incentives eg. cheap car loans, like what Hartlepool used to do 15 years ago.
The 52p might include a contribution towards higher car insurance, i'm only guessing ?
This is something you need to take up with a councillor or the FOI dept.
I seem to remember that cars with a bigger engine get a higher rate as well.
Perseus, if 2 married officers claimed twice for using the same car then that is fraud. All claims have to go through a form filling exercise.
Ok MK1, you can explain to me.
If you had to go to Wynyard, Clavering, West View, Seaton and Greatham all in one day from the civic centre at 9am, where
would you start, what buses would you use, how much would it cost and how long will it take ?
Bearing in mind you would have to spend 30 minutes with each client and stop for lunch.
What time would you arrive back at the civic centre ??????
Quote from: testicles on July 10, 2012, 06: PM
The 52p might include a contribution towards higher car insurance, i'm only guessing ?
Anyone who uses their car for business usage does need to include this (usually at extra cost) in their insurance, as it's not part of the usual 'social, domestic and pleasure' categories. I once had it added to my insurance for a one off journey to take a non-driver colleague to a meeting in Manchester (and no, before anyone asks, I have never worked for HBC)! Can't remember exactly how much it was, but it was so small that I didn't bother to remove it on renewal until I changed cars, so don't think that it needs to be a major factor in determining mileage allowances.
Quote from: testicles on July 10, 2012, 06: PM
Ok MK1, you can explain to me.
If you had to go to Wynyard, Clavering, West View, Seaton and Greatham all in one day from the civic centre at 9am, where
would you start, what buses would you use, how much would it cost and how long will it take ?
Bearing in mind you would have to spend 30 minutes with each client and stop for lunch.
What time would you arrive back at the civic centre ??????
Reductio ad absurdum.
Cars may be needed for those case but how many who claim the mileage work in this area?
You always run off at a tangent and refuse to address the salient point.
Here it is in plain language..
Why is the rate in Hartlepool above the reccomended rateRemember the clowns who set this high rate are the same fat lazy buggers who hired a Luxury coach to take them 200 yards from the Civic to the opening of Tumbleweed Junction.
Quote from: testicles on July 10, 2012, 06: PM
Ok MK1, you can explain to me.
If you had to go to Wynyard, Clavering, West View, Seaton and Greatham all in one day from the civic centre at 9am, where
would you start, what buses would you use, how much would it cost and how long will it take ?
Bearing in mind you would have to spend 30 minutes with each client and stop for lunch.
What time would you arrive back at the civic centre ??????
oooh my specialist subject. now i am basing this on wynyard being wynyard road and not wynyard village.
from the heart foundation shop opp grand hotel get the service 7 pay £3.20 for a dayrider ticket from the driver leaves there at 9:15 arriving at wynyard road shops at 9:30 spend your 30 mins with the client and get a service 6 from catcote road/wynyard road junction at 10:22 allowing for walking time arrive clavering at 10:53 30 miins with client leave clavering 11:38 service 6 again and travel to brus shops arriving 11:46 leave brus at 12:36 and arrive at carlton bingo (for civic) 12:44 then have lunch say 13:30 leave civic and get 13:33 service 1 from heart foundation shop again arrive elizabeth way shops at 13:48 leave elizabeth way shops at 14:38 arriving at st aidans at 14:53 and cross over to bus stop at cornwall street near lotus express and catch service 36 arriving greatham 15:20 then 30 mins with client catching 36 back to yates wine bar at approx 16:10 arriving 16:40 now distance town to wynyard 3.5 wynyard to clavering 5.0 clavering to west view 1.5 west view to town 2.0 town to seaton 3 seaton to greatham 4 then greatham to civic 5 total approx 24 miles at 52p p m say £12.50 instead of £3.20 and thats why they use the car. mileages are approximate and give a idea of mileage and the practicality of bus travel in hartlepool.
if this was to be repeated 4 days a week a weekly megarider ticket at £10 would give a saving of approx £40 per week using bus v car
I Had Company cars for 25 years, the last 5 years I supplied my own vehicles. Most companies supply lease vehicles and you have a choice of vehicle depending on your job grade, a personal use charge( PUC) is normally charged and this again reflects your job grade,(the higher up the ladder you are the better the car for less money) this is Tax deductable.The fuel allowance for these type of vehicles is normally very low, reflecting the fact the Lease company are responsible for all the maintenance, Road Tax, etc. ( I think the Diesel mileage rate for these vehicles is around 12.5 pence at the moment.)We used to claim our mileage monthly and most employees found it difficult to break even at these rates, you need to drive very sensibly to get a good MPG.What most people don't realise is the Tax implications of having a Company car,HMRC charge you benefit in kind (BIK) on all vehicles and this can be £100+ per month depending on what vehicle you have.After the 3 year lease is up they expect you to return the vehicle in the same condition it was when new, if not charges are applied.
Using your own vehicle for work is totally different, yes you may receive 45P per mile but it goes nowhere, Tyres,servicing Road Tax , Insurance (Business use required) and wear & tear. Anything over 45p and you are taxed on the extra amount.(after 10,000 miles the 45P allowance goes down to 25 pence) Conditions of being on this type of scheme are that the vehicle must be available at all times, if you break down it is your responsibility to provide an alternative vehicle.
Regarding people on here talking about cycles and walking etc, its 2012!! it was not long ago people were complaining about the Council providing Mobile Phones and Computers, its all part of modern life now. If I wanted the Council Building Inspector to come to my premises I wouldn't expect him to walk, go on a Bus or turn up on a bike, I want him there Today!! Times have changed and everyone at work is expected to travel more, when I served my Time we only went as far as Stockton, when I left work 30 odd years later it was normal to "just go to Berwick" or "have a run down to Leeds" on a daily basis!
I think most posters on here are being unfair to the Council, allowing people to use their own cars must be saving them a fortune!! I know when you see the figures in the Mail it does get your back up, but as I know there is more to this than has been explained, sometimes the true figures are conveniently left out!
Perseus, i think 45p would be an adequate amount to pay owner drivers.
No.6, i meant Wynyard village not Wynyard road, please re-calculate it all again. Part of Wynyard village belongs to HBC, did you not know that ?
Also bear in mind how much quicker it would be using a car and how much extra work could be done in the time saved ?
MK1, i don't know why the rate in Hartlepool is different to other north east towns, one of your 3 councillors would be able to address that query for you..
Quote from: testicles on July 11, 2012, 02: AM
No.6, i meant Wynyard village not Wynyard road, please re-calculate it all again. Part of Wynyard village belongs to HBC, did you not know that
You can picture it can't you.
Hundreds of staff in the Civic claiming they have to visit the tiny number of people living in Wynard 3 times a week.
You couldn't make it up- the spending policy is dictated by the extremes so as to grab more cash for the needy-greedy.
Quote from: testicles on July 11, 2012, 02: AM
Also bear in mind how much quicker it would be using a car and how much extra work could be done in the time saved ?
Whenever you are asked a direct question (like why the rate is so high or the number of people recieving it) you say you have no idea and we contact our local whatever to find out more.
Can you then explain why you are vigorously defending the mileage rate if you have no idea of the detail?
We are not getting the full story here.
Quote from: testicles on July 11, 2012, 02: AM
No.6, i meant Wynyard village not Wynyard road, please re-calculate it all again. Part of Wynyard village belongs to HBC, did you not know that ?
Also bear in mind how much quicker it would be using a car and how much extra work could be done in the time saved ?
actually the village is in stockton and billingham i believe its wynyard business park thats in hartlepools area. and sorry you gave a particular example which was shown was practical although on that particular day a little more thought to visiting clients would have made sense.start at seaton then back to town for bus to clavering then to west view back to civic for lunch then or if you are visiting wynyard village lunch in the stables then back to greatham and finally back to civic.£4.80 dayrider plus covers all of the old cleveland authority area.
Don't you think we're over-analyzing this? I don't think anyone is questioning whether mileage should be paid. What they are questioning is why HBC pays more than the 45p the Inland Revenue says is the appropriate level. This is a perfect;ly valid question given that a third of local authorities are content to pay the approved rate.
Since last year, HBC pays a flat rate of 52.2p irrespective of the size of the vehicle. It also offeres cheap car loans AND loans to purchase bicycles - and if I remember correctly, it pays mileage for bicycles too which I thing is around 7p a mile.
No 6, you could travel in any direction, it's just an exercise to find out how long it all takes and how much time would be saved by car. Some of the houses in Wynyard are part of George Morris's ward, is it West ward nowadays ?
Quote from: perseus on July 11, 2012, 10: AM
Agreed Steve, that what I was saying, it comes down to WHY is it more than 45p....
Also, regarding bicycles, HMRC recommends 20p per mile i think. Maybe the fact that HBC pays about one third of the suggested rate for bikes (if the 7p you say is accurate), but 25% (ish) more than the recommended rate for cars, says it all. Perhaps it explains why although we might see some of our councillors wearing lady gaga t-shirt lifting weights in the gym, you wont' see them on a bike much...
do you mean this.
http://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/news/local/losing-pounds-to-raise-pounds-1-4721439
MK1, my daughter spends £72 a week on diesel just getting to work and back and gets no allowances unless she does the odd call out. She is slowly burning her car out, in fact paid £400 on repairs to it last month. The extra pennies people get in car allowance help pay for these repairs and i would go one step further in fact, employees who come from out of town should also get assistance, maybe just 10p a mile for filling the gap in the skill shortage ? Working out of town is not a choice she would take but that's life !
I see no reason why anyone should be paid mileage to get to and from work never mind being given an 'extra' allowance. Do those who travel to work by bus or train get their fares returned?
Quote from: testicles on July 11, 2012, 10: AM
...and i would go one step further in fact, employees who come from out of town should also get assistance, maybe just 10p a mile for filling the gap in the skill shortage ? Working out of town is not a choice she would take but that's life !
You've got to be one of these "trolls" that I've read about.
There is no way that you could really believe the garbage that you come out with so you must be doing it for some kind of weird personal gratification.
Quote from: testicles on July 11, 2012, 10: AM
MK1, my daughter spends £72 a week on diesel just getting to work and back and gets no allowances unless she does the odd call out. She is slowly burning her car out, in fact paid £400 on repairs to it last month. The extra pennies people get in car allowance help pay for these repairs and i would go one step further in fact, employees who come from out of town should also get assistance, maybe just 10p a mile for filling the gap in the skill shortage ? Working out of town is not a choice she would take but that's life !
has she ever thought of getting a job nearer home?
my daughter works in washington and has a 40 mile round trip 5 days a week and only spends £30 a week on diesel !
Donkey co*k, you are an uneducated numpty and should return under your stone forthwith.
I saw HBC 1V at the town hall on Saturday night.
Selling on that number plate and letting the car go would help the cash strapped council.
Probably cheaper to hire a Limmo for Cllr Simmons to attend the odd function, probably have more fun too ...win-win.
Quote from: testicles on July 11, 2012, 06: PM
Donkey co*k, you are an uneducated numpty and should return under your stone forthwith.
Your vocabulary and ability to construct a sensible argument are truly outstanding.
Donkey co*k, you are an uneducated numpty and should return under your stone forthwith
I think we can do without the pointless name calling, don't you? Plonker ;D
What is surprising is how many miles are driven each year (on our behalf) by Council Staff.
With an allowance of one million pounds per year, this equates to about two million miles driven per year.
Or about one and a half times round the world per week.
In a car using say 40 miles per gallon, this would require approx. 50,000 gallons of petrol per year, or about 10 tanker deliveries.
As for pollution, even with a moderately efficient engine, this would produce about 300 metric tonnes of CO2 per year.
Or almost a tonne per day.
Which is a lot of fizzy stuff, especially in this damp climate.
Is there a "green expert" in the Council? ;D
If there is Rabbit he'll be on about £89,000 a year :-[
He started it Steve L, he called me a troll :'( :'( :'( :'(