Is it true?
Did Ray Wells vote 25 time out of 25 times with Labour, if so what proof can we see of that? Is this the black arts of local politics at work or is there any truth to it at all..
Theres 2 things here..........1st is that people would assume if he didn't vote against them he is voting with them and 2nd is that it might have been good policy to vote with labour on a specific issue which might be beneficial for us all. ???
How I understand this is that there are two types of vote taken in council. The first is just a straight show of hands and only the result is recorded so if something was passed it might have been 23 to 24 or 1 to 46 or anywhere inbetween. There are literally 100's of such votes in a council year. The second type of vote is a roll call where every councillor present is asked individually how they vote and their response noted in the minutes. There might only be a few dozen of this type of vote in a council year and usually only when a political point is being made. I think it must be 25 out of 25 of this type of vote where the Tories have voted with the Labour Group. It would be easy enough to verify this by going back through the minutes if you could be bothered to do so!
Thanks S.Haddow that has given me a better understanding of how it works and why.
So before people scream this or that about Ray Wells, shouldn't they have check if it was the case, that it was 25/25.
If that was the case can we see the proof online please whoever took the time to check the facts.
Quote from: testicles on April 19, 2012, 05: PM
Theres 2 things here..........1st is that people would assume if he didn't vote against them he is voting with them and 2nd is that it might have been good policy to vote with labour on a specific issue which might be beneficial for us all. ???
This
I understand that the majority of full council votes that are taken are as a result of much and protracted debate prior, normally in scrutiny meetings and if Lilley and the rest of the 'independents' ever went to them they'd know why most votes go through at full council with only them objecting.
Since he was elected in May 2010 there have been 25 recorded votes, in every one of those votes he has voted the same as the Labour group.
Interesting deviations in voting from Tory policy; Council meeting 05 08 2010 the labour group had a notice of motion which he signed;
Council resolves:
To write directly to the Chancellor of the Exchequer raising concerns
about the impact of the proposed VAT increase on pensioners, other
vulnerable groups and businesses in Hartlepool. That this letter should
be signed by all group leaders, plus any other member that wishes to"
Signed:-
Councillor C Simmons
Councillor J Brash
Councillor S Maness
Councillor G Morris
Councillor R Wells
Councillor S Griffin.
The motion was moved and seconded following which the reasons for
presenting the Motion to Council were outlined. During the lengthy debate that
followed, Members made comment upon the motion with the majority of
Members expressing support for the motion.
At the end of the debate, before the Motion was put to the vote, the mover of
the Motion responded to the issues which had been raised during the debate
and sought the Council's support of the Motion.
RESOLVED that:-
(i) the Motion be approved.
(ii) the Chairman write to the Chancellor of the Exchequer raising
concerns about the impact of the proposed VAT increase on
pensioners, other vulnerable groups and businesses in
Hartlepool and the letter be signed by all Members wishing to
support the motion.
(iii) A letter be sent to the Local Government Association to
convey the views of the Council, as set out in the Motion
urging them to support the Motion.
The following Members requested that their vote in support of the above
resolution be recorded:
Cllrs C Akers-Belcher, S Akers-Belcher, Barclay, Brash, Cook, Cranney, Fleet,
Griffin, Hall, Ingham, Lawton, Maness, J W Marshall, Payne, Richardson,
Rogan, Shaw, Thomas and Worthy.
The following Members requested that their vote against the above resolution
be recorded:-
Councillors Barker, London, Preece and Wright
Council Meeting 04 08 2011 he voted against discussing Christine Blakeys petition, which in effect kicked it into touch;
The above petition had been submitted to the Council by Christine Blakey, Lead
Petitioner, who was in attendance at the meeting. In accordance with the
Council's Petition Scheme, the lead petitioner presented the petition to Council.
As there were no questions of clarification for the lead petitioner the Deputy
Mayor responded in the absence of the Mayor. The Deputy Mayor reported that
having considered the contents of the petition, it was recommended that no
action be taken.
In accordance with Council Procedure Rule 17.4 of the Constitution a recorded
vote was taken in relation to the recommendation:-
Those in favour of the recommendation: C Akers-Belcher, S Akers-Belcher, Barclay, Brash, Cook,
Fenwick, Fleet, Griffin, Hall, Hargreaves, Hill, Jackson, James,
Lauderdale, Lawton, Loynes, Maness, A Marshall, J W Marshall,
McKenna, Dr. Morris, Payne, Richardson, Robinson, Rogan, Shields,
Simmons , Sirs , Tem pes t, Thom as , H Thom ps on, P Thom pson, Turner,
Wells and Wilcox
Those against the recommendation:
Aiken, Fleming, Gibbon, A E Lilley, G Lilley, J Marshall, Preece and Wrigh
Same Meeting there was a vote looking for HBC to enter discussion to buy Jacksons landing:-
Those in favour of the recommendation:
Councillors Aiken, C Akers-Belcher, S Akers-Belcher, Barclay, Brash,
Cook, Fenwick, Fleet, Fleming, Griffin, Hall, Hargreaves, Hill, Jackson,
James, Lauderdale, Lawton, Loynes, Maness, A Marshall, J W Marshall,
McKenna, Dr. Morris, Payne, Preece, Richardson, Robinson, Rogan,
Shields , Simmons , Sirs , Tem pes t, Thom as , H Thom ps on, P Thom pson,
Turner, Wells and Wilcox
Those against the recommendation:
Councillors Gibbon, A E Lilley, G Lilley, J Marshall and Wright
Full Council meeting 09 02 2012;
140. MOTIONS ON NOTICE
The following Motion had been received:-
"This Council resolves to amend Section 4 of the Council's Constitution
and record within their annual Budget and Policy Framework that any
favourable outturn must be allocated to the Council's General Fund. This
will ensure that any further allocation of the said monies is subject to Full
Council approval".
Councillor C Akers-Belcher
Councillor T Lawton
Councillor A Barclay
Councillor P Ingham
Councillor M James
The motion was moved and seconded.
Issues arising from the motion were debated by Members.
In accordance with Council Procedure Rule 17.4 of the Constitution a recorded
vote was taken in relation to the proposal:-
Those in favour:-
Councillors: C Akers-Belcher, S Akers-Belcher, Barlday, Cook,
Cranney, Fenwick, Fleet, Fleming, |ngham, James, Lawton, Loynes,
Maness, A Marshall, J W Marshall, McKenna, Morris, Preece,
Ricarhds on, Robins on, Rogan, Shields , Sirs , Tem pes t, Thomas , P
Thompson, Turner, Wells and Wilcox.
Those against:-
The Mayor, Stuart Drummond
Councillors Gibbon, Hill, Lauderdale, A E Lilley, G Lilley and H
Thompson
Also on the 09 02 2011 in relation to the mid term budget;
139. REPORT FROM THE EXECUTIVE
(a) Proposals in relation to the Council's budget and policy framework
(i) Medium Term Financial Strategy 2011/12 to 2014/15
The Finance and Procurement Portfolio Holder formally presented to Council
the Executive's proposals for the Medium Term Financial Strategy 2012/13 to
2014/15. The Portfolio Holder on behalf of Cabinet indicated appreciation for
the support received from Scrutiny Co-ordinating Committee during the budget
process. The final proposals from Cabinet were set out in the report for
Council's consideration.
An amended document had been circulated to reflect the views of Cabinet
following the meeting held on 6 February 2012.
The Portfolio Holder moved and commended the final budget proposals as set
out in the report. The Mayor commented on the financial pressures facing the
Council and thanked everyone involved in setting a particularly challenging
budget.
The following amendments were moved and seconded:-
1. "This Council cannot agree to the budget proposal from Cabinet relating to
the up-front costs from the ICT, Revenues and Benefits Contract. Our
recommendation is to balance our 2012/13 budget by utilising £330k from the
Job Evaluation Appeal Reserve. The remainder of the monies identified from Council -
this reserve should be transferred to the General Fund.
The purpose of our decision is because this Council resolves we do not and will
not privatise the Revenues and Benefits Service but our decision will allow the
Council the opportunity to explore all available options for a new ICT contract,
including both privatisation and an in-house option which may realise the
maximum savings for the benefit of Hartlepool"
2. "This Council wishes to remove from £2k year on year Mayoral Allowance
increase from the budget plus projected increase £9k for all Members which can
be identified in the Statement of General Fund requirements 2012/13 and to
transfer these amounts to General Fund Balances."
3. "This Council supports the Scrutiny Co-ordinating Committee's proposal to
establish a "Ward Fund". This should be established at £181,500 to be
allocated equally to all Elected Members to directly address specific resident
and ward issues."
This fund will be created by allocating the under spends from both the Acting
Chief Executive arrangements (£76,848) and the Joint Head of HR role (21,402)
plus £83,250 from the 2011/12 favourable General Fund outturn for this
municipal year.
Council further supports the allocating of the one-off saving arising from last
year's industrial action at £50,000 approximately to a ring-fenced budget for the
retraining of staff on the redeployment register. Recommendation from HJTUC
to support our members."
4. "This Council approves the Furniture Project reserve @ £50,000 being
allocated to kick start the said project."
Members of the council made comment upon the proposed amendments.
In accordance with Council Procedure Rule 17.4 of the Constitution a recorded
vote was taken in relation to the proposed amendments:-
Those in favour of the recommendation:
Councillors C Akers-Belcher, S Akers-Belcher, Barclay, Cook, Cranney,
Fenwick, Fleet, Fleming, Ingham, James, Lawton, Loynes, Maness, A Marshall,
J W Marshall, McKenna, Dr. Morris, Preece, Richardson, Robinson, Rogan,
Shields , Sirs , Tempes t, Thomas , Wells and Wilcox.
Those against the recommendation:
The Mayor, Stuart Drummond
Councillors Gibbon, Hill, Lauderdale, A E Lilley, G Lilley, H Thompson
Those abstaining:
Councillors Brash, Hall, Hargreaves, Jackson, Payne, Simmons, P Thompson
Council meeting 23 01 2011
In accordance with Council Procedure Rule 17.4 of the Constitution a recorded
vote was taken in relation to the decision made by Council on 9th February and
supporting resolutions detailed in appendix 3 and supporting calculations
detailed in appendix 4.
It was highlighted that if a two thirds majority in favour of
the Council's amendments, on 9th February, was not achieved, then the
Executive's proposals would stand.
Those in favour:
Councillors C Akers-Belcher, S Akers-Belcher, Barclay, Cook, Cranney,
Fenwick, Fleet, Griffin, Ingham, James, Lawton, Loynes, Maness, A Marshall,
McKenna, Dr. Morris, Preece, Richardson, Robinson, Rogan, Shaw, Shields,
Sirs, Tempest, Thomas, P Thompson, Turner, Wells, Wilcox and Wright
Those against the recommendation:
The Mayor, Stuart Drummond and Councillors Fleming, Gibbon, Hill,
Lauderdale, A Lilley, G Lilley and H Thompson
The simple fact is that in every single vote the Tory's have supported the Labour group is damming enough, 25 out of 25 100% record, impressive.
http://www.puttinghartlepoolfirst.co.uk/whatitsaysonthetin.php
I understand that the majority of full council votes that are taken are as a result of much and protracted debate across the political spectrum prior, normally in scrutiny meetings and if Lilley and the rest of the 'independents' ever went to them they'd know why most votes go through at full council with only them objecting.
It sounds like Hartlepool First are rattled.
Strange how you see things, it appears to me Cllr.Ray Wells voting record is not what his constituents would expect of a Tory. Not to worry they'll soon know about it.
Quote from: The Shadow on April 19, 2012, 09: PM
It sounds like Hartlepool First are rattled.
Someone certainly is.
Rattled enough to send an undercover stooge to defend and excuse his (in)actions........
So bereft of ideas you have to post the same excuse twice?
Quote from: Lord Elpus on April 19, 2012, 09: PM
Strange how you see things, it appears to me Cllr.Ray Wells voting record is not what his constituents would expect of a Tory. Not to worry they'll soon know about it.
I'd imagine tory voters would want low taxes = His objection to a rise in VAT.
I'd imagine tory voters would want to reduce wastful spending = His objection to wasting a 6 figure sum to cancel a contract that has 1 year left to run so that revs & bens could be retendered to a very small list of select companies.
Do you even know Conservative policies?
I could go on Cllr but I have no need to. You know the truth, you just prefer to play politics and tug on peoples heart strings rather than actually turning up to meetings and actually working with people to better this town. Pathetic really.
G.L.was there 25 votes in your post where he voted 25 times with Labour?
I am having trouble counting the 25 there..
Someone break it down for me please to dates and votes, without all the other bits, to help this simple man out..
Quote from: notinshadow on April 19, 2012, 11: PM
Someone break it down for me please to dates and votes, without all the other bits, to help this simple man out..
I thought you had 'access' to Wells and thus could say right out 'that is wrong' -if it was wrong.
MK1
Will you count them and tell me if there is 25 out of 25 there please Sir.
What's the access bit all about ..don't start telling lies.. as that's isn't fair my friend.
I have emailed Ray Well a few weeks ago and if you like, I will find the email and post it.
I will email Ray Well now to ask if he minds me putting his reply on here..
I have found the email.. it was sent on the 27th March at 0.37am
Hi Ray
May is fast approaching, it's time to think about who I want to vote for this year..the problem I have is this..
Everytime I think about voting Tory, the fact that out of 25 votes, you voted 25 times with Labour concerns me and I simply wondered why you would vote that way 25 times.
Also will you be fielding a nobody, that nobody knows, in my ward again this time round, that will make no effort to try and win, as quite frankly I wasted my vote last time because of the complete lack of effort by the Tory party in this town.
Kind Regards
Not including some meetings in my earlier post, at the following meetings dates there was a recorded vote, Ray Wells voted with the Labour on every occasion. you can check all these meetings out on HBC website.
09 -2- 2012 Wells 4 of 4 indy 2 of 4
8 -12-2011 Wells 6 of 6 indy 4 of 6
27 10 2011 Wells 2 of 2 indy 2 of 2
08 09 2011 Wells 1 of 1 indy 1 of 1
04 -8 2011 Wells 4 of 4 indy 3 of 4
10 02 2011 Wells 1 of 1 indy 1 of 1
11 02 2011 Wells 1 of 1 indy 1 of 1
Quote from: The Shadow on April 19, 2012, 10: PM
I could go on Cllr but I have no need to.
No need to but you will anyway......
Quote from: The Shadow on April 19, 2012, 10: PM
you just prefer to play politics and tug on peoples heart strings rather than actually turning up to meetings and actually working with people to better this town. Pathetic really.
Pathetic?
Like ensuring you are photographed in Ward Jackson Park at least once a month?
Like allowing The Manor Mafia to loot the public purse and giving a mealy-mouthed excuse as to why you can not (dare not?) comment on the matter?
I too could go on but you get the message.
Quote from: Lord Elpus on April 19, 2012, 11: PM
Not including some meetings in my earlier post, at the following meetings dates were there was a recorded vote, Ray Wells voted with the Labour on every occasion. you can check all these meetings out on HBC website.
09 -2- 2012 Wells 4 of 4 indy 2 of 4
8 -12-2011 Wells 6 of 6 indy 4 of 6
27 10 2011 Wells 2 of 2 indy 2 of 2
08 09 2011 Wells 1 of 1 indy 1 of 1
04 -8 2011 Wells 4 of 4 indy 3 of 4
10 02 2011 Wells 1 of 1 indy 1 of 1
11 02 2011 Wells 1 of 1 indy 1 of 1
Don't confuse the man with facts.......
Quote from: notinshadow on April 19, 2012, 11: PM
What's the access bit all about.............
I confused my shadows!
Fair enough fella.. ;)
Quote from: The Shadow on April 19, 2012, 09: PM
I understand that the majority of full council votes that are taken are as a result of much and protracted debate across the political spectrum.
So the council budget, for example, that would be discussed in numerous meetings and working groups over a period of 12 months and agreed in cabinet. It would then go for a vote of full council where six cabinet members who had spent nearly a year work on and agreeing this budget would suddenly discover they didn't support it after all....... ;)
I don't think its PHF who are getting rattled here.....
Say what you like about Ray Wells but I emailed him a short time ago and have had a reply already, giving his consent to post his private email reply to be back in March.
I think from memory, I have emailed him 3 or 4 times, each time I have had a speedy reply.
I am still waiting for my email from either of the Lilley's from 2 years ago, along with other councillors who simply egnore you like you don't matter..which of course to them you don't.
Hi
I make no apologies for voting in the best interests of the people of the town, even if that involves voting with another political party. As for the 25 out of 25 votes if you look at all the votes and not just 25 hand picked ones you will see a different picture.
As for who is standing in your ward we are always looking for good people.
Regards
Ray
P.S. Just to rub salt in, the other person that I have to admit always replies to emails, even if I don't like the reply to much, is Stuart Drummond.
In case any of the Lilley's feel like replying to me after all this time, the email was to ask why Allison Lilley abstained from the vote to close the hospital..
How can you do one thing and then say another..surely to the average man in the street that's double standards.
No wonder he calls me a "odius little t*a*" for asking questions they don't want to answer!! funny when he saw me last, he didn't call me anything at all but simply said he didn't want to talk to me..
Quote from: notinshadow on April 19, 2012, 11: PM
Also will you be fielding a nobody, that nobody knows, in my ward again this time round, that will make no effort to try and win, as quite frankly I wasted my vote last time
Didn't I see him in The Mail a few days ago standing for Hartlepool First in Burn Valley?
I am trying to work out who that would be..
Someone give me a clue. :-[
'No wonder he calls me a "odius little t*a*" for asking questions'.
Please show me where I called you an 'odious little t*a*'?
Lets look at my whole post..
In case any of the Lilley's feel like replying to me after all this time, the email was to ask why Allison Lilley abstained from the vote to close the hospital..
Still no reply 2 years later!!! RayWells never has a problem replying!! infact, not only did he reply within 10 minutes or so late last night, he also replied to the follow up email I sent him.. this email was received at 6.57am this morning..early bird and all that..
How can you do one thing and then say another..surely to the average man in the street that's double standards.
Do you not think you should be answering this before you ask further questions.
No wonder he calls me a "odius little t*a*" for asking questions they don't want to answer!! funny when he saw me last, he didn't call me anything at all but simply said he didn't want to talk to me..
Yes you actually have used this term 3 times now that I know of..
Once over the row we had online a couple years ago about not replying to emails.
Once when it was mentioned about you wearing a yellow dress.. and you spat you dummy out called me that before saying you would no longer post while I was on the site or words to that effect.
And again it was used in a post the other day, regarding Shadow or most likely Shadow and I..
The reason I remember it is, everytime you use the word I have to think what does that mean, as you are the only person online or anywhere else I personally have heard use it.
Quote from: notinshadow on April 19, 2012, 11: PM
Say what you like about Ray Wells but I emailed him a short time ago and have had a reply already, giving his consent to post his private email reply to be back in March.
I think from memory, I have emailed him 3 or 4 times, each time I have had a speedy reply.
I am still waiting for my email from either of the Lilley's from 2 years ago, along with other councillors who simply egnore you like you don't matter..which of course to them you don't.
Hi
I make no apologies for voting in the best interests of the people of the town, even if that involves voting with another political party. As for the 25 out of 25 votes if you look at all the votes and not just 25 hand picked ones you will see a different picture.
As for who is standing in your ward we are always looking for good people.
Regards
Ray
P.S. Just to rub salt in, the other person that I have to admit always replies to emails, even if I don't like the reply to much, is Stuart Drummond.
Can I point out that I was standing for the conservatives last year and that comment that Ray Wells is always looking for good people to stand is rubbish. Last year I never even got invited to a single meeting. I only seen Ray once and that was at the count.
Quote from: Gough00 on April 20, 2012, 10: AM
Can I point out that I was standing for the conservatives last year and that comment that Ray Wells is always looking for good people to stand is rubbish.
I agree and I will tell you why..
This household wasted 3 votes on you last time round, I never received a knock at the door or a leaflet..I wanted to vote Tory for no better reason than I didn't want to vote Labour or these clowns that act as Indy's but we all know are really Labour..(if you walk like Labour, you talk like Labour, you stick your hand up when told by labour then they must be Labour.) so yes it is rubbish that they looked for good peole to stand in my area last time round.
Last year I never even got invited to a single meeting. I only seen Ray once and that was at the count.
You only saw Ray once..so what did you do about that..were you ringing him, emailing him, calling out to him in the street when you saw him or did you do nothing like the way we think you conducted your campain.
You can't have it both ways can you..
I hear your now PHF and good luck to you this time round..you will only get out what you put in, so best hit the street and door knock this time round and maybe, just maybe, you might do better this time round.
Good Luck to you.
Hang on a minute young man..(just had a thought)
You say Ray Wells did nothing for you etc etc..
I recall the same Ray Wells ( the snappy dresses with no taste in ties) you know the one..likes to hang around the fountain at West Park waiting for water to be delivered..is this the same Ray Wells we are talking about..
You know the one..the same one that last time round was standing outside the polling station at the pub on Warrior Park to help you by chatting to voters on their way in.
How do I know..?? as I chatted to him for 15 minutes in the pissing rain..
I remember as we both ended up soaked.