Hartlepool and immigration

[Lucy Lass-Tick]

Suggestions in today's news that benefit levels may potentially vary within the UK according to location also raises some interesting questions. If, (in order to find work in less arid conditions), someone moved from the North to the South, I wonder if they would receive benefits at their 'home town' level, as happened with Parish relief during in the depression of the 1930s. 

Speaking of immigration, should that be the case one can imagine an influx of unemployed southerners heading north, where their money would go further with a cheaper cost of living.  Just musing, as this is admittedly highly unlikely.  It could, however, be interesting should the 1930s model be used.

[mk1]

A lot of jobs the Poles do are for minimum wage anyway, so that hasn't 'forced down' anything. It was already low. I'm not 'happy' about the fact that it was already low, but i don't see how that equates to blaming the Poles for it.

It is obvious to me you have idea of what modern day work is like for those on the bottom rung.
You lack the ability to see  the bleeding obvious.
I will give you an example from real life.
A large factory in Hartlepool with 600+ workers.
Wages not high but the firm always kept ahead of the legal minimum wage. Every year they would negotiate an increase.
Along come the Poles. Within 1 year over half the 'manual' jobs are now taken by Poles.
Firm stops paying any yearly increase and within a short time wage levels are at the Minimum Wage.
Firm has contract with a Polish Employment Agency to supply workers for any vacancy. They never again use the Job Centre for Manual Jobs.
Poles are given half shifts and odd hour jobs because one of the Poles on-shift will phone up his mates and they will come in at any time.
90% of overtime goes to Poles because they (unlike family men) will work 12 hours a day 7 days a week.
Withing the space of 2-3 years a reasonably well paid job slips down to the bottom and all opportunity to get extra money vanishes.

I am constantly amazed at how those in well paid jobs  can not see the plight of the millions of cleaners and labourers. They have seen their pay and conditions decline drasticaly and still we have the insulated middle class opining that this influx is good for the country.
What they mean it is good for them because now they pay less and the couldn't give a flying f*u*ck that  others are paying dearly so they can save 50 quid on the gardening.
You my friend are completely out of touch with the modern reality.

[mk1]

It's interesting to hear that two men who know little or nothing about me are now able to slot me into a particular social class and establish how out of touch I am with reality without actually knowing anything about me, my family, the job I do, where I live, or my politics and principles.

I have extensive experience in manufacturing industry.
I have worked with/beside Poles and know many socialy. I have nothing against them personaly but as a group they have had a terrible impact on the wages of the low paid.

If you want I could supply more detail but pray just give me a brief resume of your experience in this area. When was the last time you were in a factory?

Suprise me!

That sound's a little...hmmm.. what's the word? ..........prejudice?

When you answer the question above then we will know if you are talking out of your ar*se or your elbow.

I will give you a  clue as to how far you are out of your depth here.
This  Polish problem was a significant drain on my time in my last 'office'.

Sub contracting factory workers and anti union type working legislation isn't Polish people's fault. This is a Labour town right? Party of the Unions. Why blame the Poles?

I blame the 'New Labour' gangsters and the War criminal Blair.
I have read several times (from dissenting Labour  politicians) that the decision to allow the Poles in was  a deliberate ploy to weaken the bargaining power of the Unions. The 'New' Labour lot decided to help their social equals (the wealthy middle class) rather than their natural constituants.
The rush to woo the swing voters in Croydon overode their loyalty to those who voted for them.
I see the same thing happening localy. The SCABs are direct linked to the odious Mandelson and are looting the public purse to  give themselves an obscene income.

[Ryehill]

                 The subject of immigration is both emotive and complicated. There are various types of immigrants, ranging from people fleeing from oppressive regimes to chancers who think that the streets of Britain are paved with gold. None of them who try to get here, whether legally or illegally, do so in  order to benefit Great Britain . They come for their own personal reasons.
              I think as a nation we are morally obliged to give help to the genuine asylum seekers, but for the rest  surely it is not unreasonable, for our government to vet those people who want to come here, and select only those who will benefit this country.
               Perseus obliquely referred to U.K.I.P. when he mentioned that an unnamed party wanted to stop all immigration for 5 years.He failed to mention the next part which said that after that immigration would be pegged at 50k per year. Some people might view this policy as unfair others might think that it does not go far enough. Oddly enough the Conservative Party's policy, apart from the moratorium ,on immigration is very similar.
             Hartlepool ,due to its geographic position and its high level of unemployment, has, apparently, not experienced the high levels of immigration experienced by other towns and cities, but MK1 paints a different picture with local people losing out on jobs simply for economic reasons and not because they were inferior workmen.
             Despite what Perseus thinks there are a number of other ways in which immigration affects this town. Events in other parts of the country can affect us directly. Eg Boris Johnson has asked the treasury for an extra £300 million in order to provide extra support for the many non-English speaking children in London schools. This equates to £10 extra tax per taxpayer in the country. Meanwhile back in Hartlepool the council spend thousands of pounds each year on translation services for the non-English speaking immigrants. We the council tax payer foot that bill.
            The government have a policy of dispersal of asylum seekers around the country. Some have arrived in Hartlepool and have been provided with houses. I don't know if Housing Hartlepool have a waiting list but if asylum seekers have been given priority then this will only fuel resentment.
              Hartlepool has benefited from immigration . A number of health professionals have been recruited from third world countries and in the main their professionalism and expertise cannot be faulted but I think that it is immoral for us to poach people who are badly needed in their own countries. We should be training our own health professionals,
              As I said at the beginning of this piece immigration is both emotive and complicated. Ed Milliband by apologising for Labour's record on immigration has at least given us the opportunity to discuss the subject without shouts of racist being hurled about.

[Stig of the Seaton Dump]

There is the other side of the coin, outsourcing or off shoring in you prefer.

So many of our jobs of all professions have been sent overseas to places like India, China,  Brazil where workers are paid a fraction of the wage here, live in terrible conditions, have no health service etc. etc.
It is not just call centres, it is anything that can be moved such as administration, legal services, payroll, IT services etc.

This must put just as much strain on our country as immigration, plus we also send financial aid to places like India !

Hard to see how our standards can not drop towards the lowest that is out there.

[AWB]

Perseus, I doubt if your local Polish plumber will be up to scratch on Building regulations 2000! I personally think this immigration/multi - cultural thing is far over rated, its about time we started selling ourselves and our own youngsters, most people are frightened to voice an opinion. If you watch Border Patrol on TV you will see the type of people who want to come here ( mainly from Iran/ Iraq/Afgan), they would have no interest in this country if there were no benefits etc. Your examples of Tesco and Marks & Sparks are from a different era, that was around 80 odd years ago when people wanted to make a difference, most of todays immigrants have no intention of lifting a finger.  Regarding Immigrant food in Hartlepool, you obviously don't eat the stuff! Most places are dirty and some have a Hartlepool Council Two Star rating,I know because I've eaten in most of them! How on earth can Church St sustain Six Kebab shops (over 30 in town!) and yet it can't support six Pubs! To sum up , no I don't think Immigration is good for Hartlepool , why send people here when we have more than enough problems of our own.

[Ryehill]

             The Labour Party in government had an immigration policy which was one of the main reasons why they lost power in 2010. Ed Milliband apologises for that policy yet Perseus does his damndest to justify it. Perseus do you think that it is you that might be out of step? Most people agree that some immigration is good for this country, but not in the huge numbers we experienced between 1997 and 2010. Do you agree with that statement?

[The Great Dictator]

Before we send all the Poles home we need to train some of our lazy English gits to do a days work in construction, perhaps the Poles could train our boys to work hard like they do.

[stokoe]

Perseus, I doubt if your local Polish plumber will be up to scratch on Building regulations 2000! I personally think this immigration/multi - cultural thing is far over rated, its about time we started selling ourselves and our own youngsters, most people are frightened to voice an opinion. If you watch Border Patrol on TV you will see the type of people who want to come here ( mainly from Iran/ Iraq/Afgan), they would have no interest in this country if there were no benefits etc. Your examples of Tesco and Marks & Sparks are from a different era, that was around 80 odd years ago when people wanted to make a difference, most of todays immigrants have no intention of lifting a finger.  Regarding Immigrant food in Hartlepool, you obviously don't eat the stuff! Most places are dirty and some have a Hartlepool Council Two Star rating,I know because I've eaten in most of them! How on earth can Church St sustain Six Kebab shops (over 30 in town!) and yet it can't support six Pubs! To sum up , no I don't think Immigration is good for Hartlepool , why send people here when we have more than enough problems of our own.

best post on the thread imo like it or lump it think the majority of hartlepool would agree,and pizza shops if they are italian the popes italian.

[mk1]

Polish people have POTENTIALLY saved some factories and businesses due to their willingness to work flexible hours and work for competitive wages, enabeling factories to compete at a local, national and international level.

'Flexible' and 'competitive' my two favourite euphemisms.

Can anyone spot the way one of those words is used to imply two different things:


Manual workers have to accept the wage they are being offered is competitive.


and:

We must pay a competitive rate to retain senior mangers.


I find it extremely telling that someone who  claims  to be a champion of the people has no problems telling the huddled masses they must tighten their belts further.


Perhaps you could give me a clue and tell me what multiple of the minimim wage you are paid?

[Julie noted]

KD & mk1, I don't know why you persist with his silly games. 
perseus reminds me of Jim Allan and his obsession with closing Hartlepool General and building a new 'world class' hospital at Wynyard. 

It doesn't matter that over 30,000 Hartlepool people signed a petition to keep ours open;
Doesn't matter that over 600 people marched to the Cenotaph in protest....
Jim will have his way.

It's like p's obsession in continuing to call Jack Cohen..Kohen.
Mr Cohen himself hasn't used THAT spelling for well over 1/2 century and yet p's continues in his 'I know best' way and spells it Kohen.

Whatever you do, don't mention Doris Mary Ann Kappelhoff, or Issur Danielovitch, or Marion Robert Morrison, or Reginald Kenneth Dwight....or we'll never hear their adopted names again!
I think p's could be Jim Allan. 

[Lucy Lass-Tick]

Perseus, have you ever considered that posters may not be a) avoiding giving a response or b) deflecting the issue - could it be that they are just plain bored?

[Julie noted]

P; I am not trying to deflect the issue, just illustrating your adherence to a point of view that few in this town and indeed the country, agree with.
Hence milliband's 'apology' for the previous labour govt. handling of the mass immigration scandal. 

I am the first to agree with you with regard to Hartlepool.
The 'few' immigrants in the town certainly have not spoiled it.
The wide selection of places to eat and enjoy dishes from other countries is a bonus and the vast majority of people in those establishments are very welcoming and pleasant.

The reasons for Hartlepool not being spoiled are manifold;
We do not have tens of thousands of immigrants;
Those we do have are either self employed, or employed;
With such relatively low numbers, a town of this size can just about cope.
Jobs would still be difficult to find even if our 'original' immigrants left.

However, you still appear to be missing the point of this long-winded discourse.....the UK can not sustain the millions of immigrants that arrived in the UK in those few short years, during the labour term.
Go to Rochdale, Manchester, Leicester, Birmingham, Liverpool and the Boroughs in the south of London.
You WILL then witness the overcrowding and stress caused by the criminal behaviour of our ex ruling classes. 

I read of one school in the south of London that has 24 different nationalities IN ONE CLASS! How can that be right....not only for the children themselves but also the teachers?

If the UK was the size of Australia/America or even France...we probably wouldn't be having this typed discussion now. Those countries are big enough to absorb them...whether they could afford them is another issue.

[mk1]

It's ok Lucy, Julie's just told me what i already knew. It's done nothing bad to our town, which is what i asked.

I gave you a concrete example of wages being held down by the Poles.
That is  'something bad'.

[Ryehill]

 Congratulations Perseus, you must be the first person to start a discussion and then stifle it with boredom.