Hartlepool and immigration

[perseus]

As has been observed on various threads over the last few months, there are clearly some polarised opinions on this forum (and in society in general) with regard to immigration.

Ed Milliband's (himself the son of Polish immigrants) recent comments have POTENTIALLY opened the door for a sensible debate on the topic...potentially.

In line with forum guidelines (about flooding, personal insults etc) I invite such a debate. Also, given this is the local link of the site, it seems appropriate to keep it boadly in relation to Hartlepool and the surrounding area.

For example, shops in the town.

M and S was started by Michael Marks and Thomas Spencer a shade over 100 years ago.
Marks, was an immigrant Polish Jew, who initially worked for a company called Barran in Leeds. Barren specialised in employing immigrants. In fact, Barran made a point of employing predominantly immigrants, due to what they perceived to be a better work ethic. Sound familiar?

Anyway, Marks, the Pole, met Spencer the Brit and the rest as they say is history. Fast forward 100 years or so and, that company, co founded by a Polish immigrant, employs about 75,000 people, mostly here in 'Blighty'. Several hundred of which are here in Hartlepool and Teesside.

Let's move onto Tesco, that great British institution right? Tesco that employs about 550,000 people (again, mostly in Britain)? Tesco that has created about 5,500 new jobs every year for about 100 years and still to this day creates about 175 new jobs EVERY week?

Tesco that has a global supply chain that employs directly or indirectly 1.4 million people?

Tesco that accounts for £1 in every £3 spent on groceries in this country?

Tesco that employs hundreds of people here in Hartlepool?

Tesco founded by 'Jack' Kohen, the Pole? The son of two Polish immigrants? (Avram Kohen and Sime Zamremb). 

So there's TWO off the top of my head. TWO people who if certain political parties had had their way would have never set foot in Britain.

Two people who played a key role in creating over 600,000 jobs in this country and that help keep about 1.7 million people in work across the globe. Hundreds of which are here in Hartlepool.

That's contribution i've outlined from.......... two.

Two Pole's.

Yet certain people would have people believe all they're good for is under cutting our plumbers.

Granted, Kohen and Marks are rather extreme examples of immigrants who have made a positive contribution to our country and our town, but how many other stories of lesser, but in principle the same, positive contributions are there that we could all tell?

How many of use have dined out on 'immigrant' cuisine regularly? or benefitted from cheaper construction labour? or witnessed our children happily mix with children from diverse backgrounds?

Have any of us GENUINELY had to wait longer for a hospital appointment due to 'waves of immigrants' clogging up the system? Have any of us actually HAD our child denied a place at their primary school of choice due to immigrants taking their places? IS the back log on social housing down to immigrants? or is it as much to do with the Tories selling most of the social housing off under Thatcher?

Genuinely, I'm not trying to wind up anyone who doesn't agree with me. I'm opening a debate.

[Inspector Knacker]

Millibands parents are Belgian and Jack Cohen founded Tesco ...... incidentally Mr Marks arrived in this country at ... West Hartlepool.

[popgoestheweasal.]

We should welcome anyone to our country if they are coming to work and pay there taxes.

[The Great Dictator]

Milibands are from Estonia.

[Lucy Lass-Tick]

Milibands are from Estonia.

Oh, you surprise me...I thought Mr. Ed hailed from Planet Zog...

[not4me]

As someone who can claim to be of Irish descent, I claim my land back for the true Britons and suggest that all you Anglo-Saxons, Normans, Romans and Vikings p**s off back where you came from....

[Inspector Knacker]

sigh... I knew the words 'sensible debate' might be problematic on this forum. I just didn't anticipate the debate initially focussing on the geographical background of the Milibands.

I described Ed as the "son of Polish immigrants".

So just to clarify, his MOTHER is POLISH by birth, his Grandparents (on the paternal side), were POLISH, they lived in WARSAW, which is in....POLAND.

His brother David is on record during a visit to Poland, which he made in 2009, as saying "My mother was born here, her life was saved by those who risked theirs sheltering her from Nazi oppression" and that he is "one of the million Britons who have Polish blood".

He said that on a visit to what HE described as "The Family Tomb" which anyone is free to visit. It's in Warsaw, which is in POLAND.

sighs...

.... and his father?

[Stig of the Seaton Dump]

I never quite understand why people of Hartlepool that don't get out of town much see immigration as an issue, going by my walking along the street view of it.
We have so few immigrants in town compared to every other town in the area.

[mk1]

I never quite understand why people of Hartlepool that don't get out of town much see immigration as an issue, going by my walking along the street view of it.
We have so few immigrants in town compared to every other town in the area.

I am going to say something that might be taken as an insult but the lesson I am trying to get across is most people associate the word immigration with skin colour.

Might it be that we have few 'coloured' immigrants but lots of 'white ' ones and  only the coloured ones are seen as a problem'

The thing with a prejudice is 'you' do not know you have it. It is ingrained in 'you' and  'you' believe your views are  perfectly normal.

Can you remember how we used to laugh at 'On The Buses' where every black character was called Chalky?

[mk1]

Rising Damp, Alf Garnett, on the buses and the like,

Both Alf and Rigsby are still funny. On The Buses just seems childish.
I think it is a mistake to judge one generation with the  standards of another. My Granny  (born in the 1890's) used a very funny phrase when refering to  'Black men' and I dare say she would never get away with it today.
Times change and we no longer hang 10 year old thieves.

I do  think that there are 2 worlds today. The world of the 'right-on' who spend their time looking for things to get offended over and the vast bulk of the population.
Anyone who works in heavy industry or building will tell you that jokes about  ethnics/women/the disabled are rife and if you start throwing your weight around telling off the others you are very quickly going to be friendless.

[popgoestheweasal.]

As my dad used to say there is good and bad in every creed and colour.

[notenoughsaid]

Being a man of few words may I have my small input.   Please forgive me if you think I am bragging but I assure you I am not. Can you a imagine  a Dyke House lad attending a congregation in the magnificent surroundings of  Durham Cathedral when my youngest daughter received her  degree from no less than Sir Peter Ustinov.   On the occasion he was alas in the last few months of his life ,but from a wheelchair he made a brilliant oration about his involvement with several Universities across the world.   He explained during  his speech that prejudice is not born in people that in fact it is taught.    A  fact I feel is correct and I will carry with me forever.    An honour to be in his presence. RIP.

[mk1]

That might fly if your antipathy to 'immigration' was formed in the last few years and  directly in response to the recent 'flood'.
For instance in those years when immigrants' were far fewer have you ever complained about them?

[mk1]

You explain to me the direct damage done to our town by Poles

That is easy.
The flood of Poles who moved here directly drove down the wages of those people in the manual/factory jobs in the area.
I know of  firms in Hartlepool who used to pay above the minimum wage pre the Poles who then stopped paying an increase and dropped to the min rate.
There is not the slightest doubt wages  dropped as a consequence.
I can tell you that is a cold hard fact  and anyone who tries to deny it is  fooling themselves.
It may be that in your normal every day life you do not see many Poles but get a job in a factory and you will see 1000's!

Do you think it fair that those at the lower end of the wage scale suffered whilst higher earners reaped the benefit of a cheaper extension?
The Polish workers who came here might have done nothing wrong but neither did the less well off and they have ended up  taking  all the pain.
Please directly address that point and do not skip over it.
What remedial action do you think should be taken or are you going to say 's*it happens' and move on?

[mk1]

Economic migration isn't new by the way. Didn't you watch 'Auf Wiedersehen, Pet'? When a group of Geordies went to Germany and 'stole' jobs off the locals/were invited there willingly by the country in question to address a labour shortage.

Or is only allowed when we go over there?

Right so your answer is  tough on the low paid but this is what happens.
A polite way of saying fu*ck you mate I am all right.
I saw the same attitude in the 1980's when Thatcher shut down manufacturing so we could all sell burgers to each other.
I watched my father get thrown out of work and he was  never again able to find a job. He was mightly comforted by the flash badtards waving their wallets and saying it was a 'price worth paying'
It always is worth paying if the pain goes to someone else.
I see no difference between the  left wing  'right-on' crowd  setting up empires (and highly paid jobs for themselves) where they lecture us on how important it is to welcome new cultures and right wingers who force cuts on the low paid whilst rewarding the thieving 'Wankers' who got us into this mess.
In my eyes neither of you  care  for those at the bottom and are more concerned with pushing your political ideals down unwilling throats.

I will say it again so you know what you agree with.
Letting up to a million Poles into the country has forced down wages and conditions for the low paid and directly led to massive youth unemployment.
Firms need no longer offer a living wage because of the influx of Poles.
Try to justify it for it and you are just another NIMBY.