As has been observed on various threads over the last few months, there are clearly some polarised opinions on this forum (and in society in general) with regard to immigration.
Ed Milliband's (himself the son of Polish immigrants) recent comments have POTENTIALLY opened the door for a sensible debate on the topic...potentially.
In line with forum guidelines (about flooding, personal insults etc) I invite such a debate. Also, given this is the local link of the site, it seems appropriate to keep it boadly in relation to Hartlepool and the surrounding area.
For example, shops in the town.
M and S was started by Michael Marks and Thomas Spencer a shade over 100 years ago.
Marks, was an immigrant Polish Jew, who initially worked for a company called Barran in Leeds. Barren specialised in employing immigrants. In fact, Barran made a point of employing predominantly immigrants, due to what they perceived to be a better work ethic. Sound familiar?
Anyway, Marks, the Pole, met Spencer the Brit and the rest as they say is history. Fast forward 100 years or so and, that company, co founded by a Polish immigrant, employs about 75,000 people, mostly here in 'Blighty'. Several hundred of which are here in Hartlepool and Teesside.
Let's move onto Tesco, that great British institution right? Tesco that employs about 550,000 people (again, mostly in Britain)? Tesco that has created about 5,500 new jobs every year for about 100 years and still to this day creates about 175 new jobs EVERY week?
Tesco that has a global supply chain that employs directly or indirectly 1.4 million people?
Tesco that accounts for £1 in every £3 spent on groceries in this country?
Tesco that employs hundreds of people here in Hartlepool?
Tesco founded by 'Jack' Kohen, the Pole? The son of two Polish immigrants? (Avram Kohen and Sime Zamremb).
So there's TWO off the top of my head. TWO people who if certain political parties had had their way would have never set foot in Britain.
Two people who played a key role in creating over 600,000 jobs in this country and that help keep about 1.7 million people in work across the globe. Hundreds of which are here in Hartlepool.
That's contribution i've outlined from.......... two.
Two Pole's.
Yet certain people would have people believe all they're good for is under cutting our plumbers.
Granted, Kohen and Marks are rather extreme examples of immigrants who have made a positive contribution to our country and our town, but how many other stories of lesser, but in principle the same, positive contributions are there that we could all tell?
How many of use have dined out on 'immigrant' cuisine regularly? or benefitted from cheaper construction labour? or witnessed our children happily mix with children from diverse backgrounds?
Have any of us GENUINELY had to wait longer for a hospital appointment due to 'waves of immigrants' clogging up the system? Have any of us actually HAD our child denied a place at their primary school of choice due to immigrants taking their places? IS the back log on social housing down to immigrants? or is it as much to do with the Tories selling most of the social housing off under Thatcher?
Genuinely, I'm not trying to wind up anyone who doesn't agree with me. I'm opening a debate.
Millibands parents are Belgian and Jack Cohen founded Tesco ...... incidentally Mr Marks arrived in this country at ... West Hartlepool.
We should welcome anyone to our country if they are coming to work and pay there taxes.
Milibands are from Estonia.
Quote from: testicles on June 24, 2012, 11: AM
Milibands are from Estonia.
Oh, you surprise me...I thought Mr. Ed hailed from Planet Zog...
As someone who can claim to be of Irish descent, I claim my land back for the true Britons and suggest that all you Anglo-Saxons, Normans, Romans and Vikings p**s off back where you came from....
Quote from: perseus on June 24, 2012, 12: PM
sigh... I knew the words 'sensible debate' might be problematic on this forum. I just didn't anticipate the debate initially focussing on the geographical background of the Milibands.
I described Ed as the "son of Polish immigrants".
So just to clarify, his MOTHER is POLISH by birth, his Grandparents (on the paternal side), were POLISH, they lived in WARSAW, which is in....POLAND.
His brother David is on record during a visit to Poland, which he made in 2009, as saying "My mother was born here, her life was saved by those who risked theirs sheltering her from Nazi oppression" and that he is "one of the million Britons who have Polish blood".
He said that on a visit to what HE described as "The Family Tomb" which anyone is free to visit. It's in Warsaw, which is in POLAND.
sighs...
.... and his father?
I never quite understand why people of Hartlepool that don't get out of town much see immigration as an issue, going by my walking along the street view of it.
We have so few immigrants in town compared to every other town in the area.
Quote from: Stig of the Seaton Dump on June 24, 2012, 05: PM
I never quite understand why people of Hartlepool that don't get out of town much see immigration as an issue, going by my walking along the street view of it.
We have so few immigrants in town compared to every other town in the area.
I am going to say something that might be taken as an insult but the lesson I am trying to get across is most people associate the word immigration with skin colour.
Might it be that we have few 'coloured' immigrants but lots of 'white ' ones and only the coloured ones are seen as a problem'The thing with a prejudice is 'you' do not know you have it. It is ingrained in 'you' and 'you' believe your views are perfectly normal.
Can you remember how we used to laugh at 'On The Buses' where every black character was called Chalky?
Quote from: perseus on June 24, 2012, 06: PM
Rising Damp, Alf Garnett, on the buses and the like,
Both Alf and Rigsby are still funny. On The Buses just seems childish.
I think it is a mistake to judge one generation with the standards of another. My Granny (born in the 1890's) used a very funny phrase when refering to 'Black men' and I dare say she would never get away with it today.
Times change and we no longer hang 10 year old thieves.
I do think that there are 2 worlds today. The world of the 'right-on' who spend their time looking for things to get offended over and the vast bulk of the population.
Anyone who works in heavy industry or building will tell you that jokes about ethnics/women/the disabled are rife and if you start throwing your weight around telling off the others you are very quickly going to be friendless.
As my dad used to say there is good and bad in every creed and colour.
Being a man of few words may I have my small input. Please forgive me if you think I am bragging but I assure you I am not. Can you a imagine a Dyke House lad attending a congregation in the magnificent surroundings of Durham Cathedral when my youngest daughter received her degree from no less than Sir Peter Ustinov. On the occasion he was alas in the last few months of his life ,but from a wheelchair he made a brilliant oration about his involvement with several Universities across the world. He explained during his speech that prejudice is not born in people that in fact it is taught. A fact I feel is correct and I will carry with me forever. An honour to be in his presence. RIP.
That might fly if your antipathy to 'immigration' was formed in the last few years and directly in response to the recent 'flood'.
For instance in those years when immigrants' were far fewer have you ever complained about them?
Quote from: perseus on June 25, 2012, 01: PM
You explain to me the direct damage done to our town by Poles
That is easy.
The flood of Poles who moved here directly drove down the wages of those people in the manual/factory jobs in the area.
I know of firms in Hartlepool who used to pay above the minimum wage pre the Poles who then stopped paying an increase and dropped to the min rate.
There is not the slightest doubt wages dropped as a consequence.
I can tell you that is a cold hard fact and anyone who tries to deny it is fooling themselves.
It may be that in your normal every day life you do not see many Poles but get a job in a factory and you will see 1000's!
Do you think it fair that those at the lower end of the wage scale suffered whilst higher earners reaped the benefit of a cheaper extension?
The Polish workers who came here might have done nothing wrong but neither did the less well off and they have ended up taking all the pain.
Please directly address that point and do not skip over it.
What remedial action do you think should be taken or are you going to say 's*it happens' and move on?
Quote from: perseus on June 25, 2012, 03: PM
Economic migration isn't new by the way. Didn't you watch 'Auf Wiedersehen, Pet'? When a group of Geordies went to Germany and 'stole' jobs off the locals/were invited there willingly by the country in question to address a labour shortage.
Or is only allowed when we go over there?
Right so your answer is tough on the low paid but this is what happens.
A polite way of saying fu*ck you mate I am all right.
I saw the same attitude in the 1980's when Thatcher shut down manufacturing so we could all sell burgers to each other.
I watched my father get thrown out of work and he was never again able to find a job. He was mightly comforted by the flash badtards waving their wallets and saying it was a 'price worth paying'
It always is worth paying if the pain goes to someone else.
I see no difference between the left wing 'right-on' crowd setting up empires (and highly paid jobs for themselves) where they lecture us on how important it is to welcome new cultures and right wingers who force cuts on the low paid whilst rewarding the thieving 'Wankers' who got us into this mess.
In my eyes neither of you care for those at the bottom and are more concerned with pushing your political ideals down unwilling throats.
I will say it again so you know what you agree with.
Letting up to a million Poles into the country has forced down wages and conditions for the low paid and directly led to massive youth unemployment.
Firms need no longer offer a living wage because of the influx of Poles.
Try to justify it for it and you are just another NIMBY.
Suggestions in today's news that benefit levels may potentially vary within the UK according to location also raises some interesting questions. If, (in order to find work in less arid conditions), someone moved from the North to the South, I wonder if they would receive benefits at their 'home town' level, as happened with Parish relief during in the depression of the 1930s.
Speaking of immigration, should that be the case one can imagine an influx of unemployed southerners heading north, where their money would go further with a cheaper cost of living. Just musing, as this is admittedly highly unlikely. It could, however, be interesting should the 1930s model be used.
Quote from: perseus on June 25, 2012, 05: PM
A lot of jobs the Poles do are for minimum wage anyway, so that hasn't 'forced down' anything. It was already low. I'm not 'happy' about the fact that it was already low, but i don't see how that equates to blaming the Poles for it.
It is obvious to me you have idea of what modern day work is like for those on the bottom rung.
You lack the ability to see the bleeding obvious.
I will give you an example from real life.
A large factory in Hartlepool with 600+ workers.
Wages not high but the firm always kept ahead of the legal minimum wage. Every year they would negotiate an increase.
Along come the Poles. Within 1 year over half the 'manual' jobs are now taken by Poles.
Firm stops paying any yearly increase and within a short time wage levels are at the Minimum Wage.
Firm has contract with a Polish Employment Agency to supply workers for any vacancy. They never again use the Job Centre for Manual Jobs.
Poles are given half shifts and odd hour jobs because one of the Poles on-shift will phone up his mates and they will come in at any time.
90% of overtime goes to Poles because they (unlike family men) will work 12 hours a day 7 days a week.
Withing the space of 2-3 years a reasonably well paid job slips down to the bottom and all opportunity to get extra money vanishes.
I am constantly amazed at how those in well paid jobs can not see the plight of the millions of cleaners and labourers. They have seen their pay and conditions decline drasticaly and still we have the insulated middle class opining that this influx is good for the country.
What they mean it is good for them because now they pay less and the couldn't give a flying f*u*ck that others are paying dearly so they can save 50 quid on the gardening.
You my friend are completely out of touch with the modern reality.
Quote from: perseus on June 25, 2012, 06: PM
It's interesting to hear that two men who know little or nothing about me are now able to slot me into a particular social class and establish how out of touch I am with reality without actually knowing anything about me, my family, the job I do, where I live, or my politics and principles.
I have extensive experience in manufacturing industry.
I have worked with/beside Poles and know many socialy. I have nothing against them personaly but as a group they have had a terrible impact on the wages of the low paid.
If you want I could supply more detail but pray just give me a brief resume of your experience in this area. When was the last time you were in a factory?
Suprise me!
Quote from: perseus on June 25, 2012, 06: PM
That sound's a little...hmmm.. what's the word? ..........prejudice?
When you answer the question above then we will know if you are talking out of your ar*se or your elbow.
I will give you a clue as to how far you are out of your depth here.
This Polish problem was a significant drain on my time in my last 'office'.
Quote from: perseus on June 25, 2012, 06: PM
Sub contracting factory workers and anti union type working legislation isn't Polish people's fault. This is a Labour town right? Party of the Unions. Why blame the Poles?
I blame the 'New Labour' gangsters and the War criminal Blair.
I have read several times (from dissenting Labour politicians) that the decision to allow the Poles in was a deliberate ploy to weaken the bargaining power of the Unions. The 'New' Labour lot decided to help their social equals (the wealthy middle class) rather than their natural constituants.
The rush to woo the swing voters in Croydon overode their loyalty to those who voted for them.
I see the same thing happening localy. The SCABs are direct linked to the odious Mandelson and are looting the public purse to give themselves an obscene income.
The subject of immigration is both emotive and complicated. There are various types of immigrants, ranging from people fleeing from oppressive regimes to chancers who think that the streets of Britain are paved with gold. None of them who try to get here, whether legally or illegally, do so in order to benefit Great Britain . They come for their own personal reasons.
I think as a nation we are morally obliged to give help to the genuine asylum seekers, but for the rest surely it is not unreasonable, for our government to vet those people who want to come here, and select only those who will benefit this country.
Perseus obliquely referred to U.K.I.P. when he mentioned that an unnamed party wanted to stop all immigration for 5 years.He failed to mention the next part which said that after that immigration would be pegged at 50k per year. Some people might view this policy as unfair others might think that it does not go far enough. Oddly enough the Conservative Party's policy, apart from the moratorium ,on immigration is very similar.
Hartlepool ,due to its geographic position and its high level of unemployment, has, apparently, not experienced the high levels of immigration experienced by other towns and cities, but MK1 paints a different picture with local people losing out on jobs simply for economic reasons and not because they were inferior workmen.
Despite what Perseus thinks there are a number of other ways in which immigration affects this town. Events in other parts of the country can affect us directly. Eg Boris Johnson has asked the treasury for an extra £300 million in order to provide extra support for the many non-English speaking children in London schools. This equates to £10 extra tax per taxpayer in the country. Meanwhile back in Hartlepool the council spend thousands of pounds each year on translation services for the non-English speaking immigrants. We the council tax payer foot that bill.
The government have a policy of dispersal of asylum seekers around the country. Some have arrived in Hartlepool and have been provided with houses. I don't know if Housing Hartlepool have a waiting list but if asylum seekers have been given priority then this will only fuel resentment.
Hartlepool has benefited from immigration . A number of health professionals have been recruited from third world countries and in the main their professionalism and expertise cannot be faulted but I think that it is immoral for us to poach people who are badly needed in their own countries. We should be training our own health professionals,
As I said at the beginning of this piece immigration is both emotive and complicated. Ed Milliband by apologising for Labour's record on immigration has at least given us the opportunity to discuss the subject without shouts of racist being hurled about.
There is the other side of the coin, outsourcing or off shoring in you prefer.
So many of our jobs of all professions have been sent overseas to places like India, China, Brazil where workers are paid a fraction of the wage here, live in terrible conditions, have no health service etc. etc.
It is not just call centres, it is anything that can be moved such as administration, legal services, payroll, IT services etc.
This must put just as much strain on our country as immigration, plus we also send financial aid to places like India !
Hard to see how our standards can not drop towards the lowest that is out there.
Perseus, I doubt if your local Polish plumber will be up to scratch on Building regulations 2000! I personally think this immigration/multi - cultural thing is far over rated, its about time we started selling ourselves and our own youngsters, most people are frightened to voice an opinion. If you watch Border Patrol on TV you will see the type of people who want to come here ( mainly from Iran/ Iraq/Afgan), they would have no interest in this country if there were no benefits etc. Your examples of Tesco and Marks & Sparks are from a different era, that was around 80 odd years ago when people wanted to make a difference, most of todays immigrants have no intention of lifting a finger. Regarding Immigrant food in Hartlepool, you obviously don't eat the stuff! Most places are dirty and some have a Hartlepool Council Two Star rating,I know because I've eaten in most of them! How on earth can Church St sustain Six Kebab shops (over 30 in town!) and yet it can't support six Pubs! To sum up , no I don't think Immigration is good for Hartlepool , why send people here when we have more than enough problems of our own.
The Labour Party in government had an immigration policy which was one of the main reasons why they lost power in 2010. Ed Milliband apologises for that policy yet Perseus does his damndest to justify it. Perseus do you think that it is you that might be out of step? Most people agree that some immigration is good for this country, but not in the huge numbers we experienced between 1997 and 2010. Do you agree with that statement?
Before we send all the Poles home we need to train some of our lazy English gits to do a days work in construction, perhaps the Poles could train our boys to work hard like they do.
Quote from: AWB on June 26, 2012, 08: AM
Perseus, I doubt if your local Polish plumber will be up to scratch on Building regulations 2000! I personally think this immigration/multi - cultural thing is far over rated, its about time we started selling ourselves and our own youngsters, most people are frightened to voice an opinion. If you watch Border Patrol on TV you will see the type of people who want to come here ( mainly from Iran/ Iraq/Afgan), they would have no interest in this country if there were no benefits etc. Your examples of Tesco and Marks & Sparks are from a different era, that was around 80 odd years ago when people wanted to make a difference, most of todays immigrants have no intention of lifting a finger. Regarding Immigrant food in Hartlepool, you obviously don't eat the stuff! Most places are dirty and some have a Hartlepool Council Two Star rating,I know because I've eaten in most of them! How on earth can Church St sustain Six Kebab shops (over 30 in town!) and yet it can't support six Pubs! To sum up , no I don't think Immigration is good for Hartlepool , why send people here when we have more than enough problems of our own.
best post on the thread imo like it or lump it think the majority of hartlepool would agree,and pizza shops if they are italian the popes italian. ;D
Quote from: perseus on June 26, 2012, 08: AM
Polish people have POTENTIALLY saved some factories and businesses due to their willingness to work flexible hours and work for competitive wages, enabeling factories to compete at a local, national and international level.
'Flexible' and 'competitive' my two favourite euphemisms.
Can anyone spot the way one of those words is used to imply two different things:
Manual workers have to accept the wage they are being offered is competitive.and:
We must pay a competitive rate to retain senior mangers.I find it extremely telling that someone who claims to be a champion of the people has no problems telling the huddled masses they must tighten their belts further.
Perhaps you could give me a clue and tell me what multiple of the minimim wage you are paid?
KD & mk1, I don't know why you persist with his silly games. ::)
perseus reminds me of Jim Allan and his obsession with closing Hartlepool General and building a new 'world class' hospital at Wynyard. :(
It doesn't matter that over 30,000 Hartlepool people signed a petition to keep ours open;
Doesn't matter that over 600 people marched to the Cenotaph in protest....
Jim will have his way.
It's like p's obsession in continuing to call Jack Cohen..Kohen.
Mr Cohen himself hasn't used THAT spelling for well over 1/2 century and yet p's continues in his 'I know best' way and spells it Kohen.
Whatever you do, don't mention Doris Mary Ann Kappelhoff, or Issur Danielovitch, or Marion Robert Morrison, or Reginald Kenneth Dwight....or we'll never hear their adopted names again!
I think p's could be Jim Allan. :P
Perseus, have you ever considered that posters may not be a) avoiding giving a response or b) deflecting the issue - could it be that they are just plain bored?
P; I am not trying to deflect the issue, just illustrating your adherence to a point of view that few in this town and indeed the country, agree with.
Hence milliband's 'apology' for the previous labour govt. handling of the mass immigration scandal. >:(
I am the first to agree with you with regard to Hartlepool.
The 'few' immigrants in the town certainly have not spoiled it.
The wide selection of places to eat and enjoy dishes from other countries is a bonus and the vast majority of people in those establishments are very welcoming and pleasant.
The reasons for Hartlepool not being spoiled are manifold;
We do not have tens of thousands of immigrants;
Those we do have are either self employed, or employed;
With such relatively low numbers, a town of this size can just about cope.
Jobs would still be difficult to find even if our 'original' immigrants left.
However, you still appear to be missing the point of this long-winded discourse.....the UK can not sustain the millions of immigrants that arrived in the UK in those few short years, during the labour term.
Go to Rochdale, Manchester, Leicester, Birmingham, Liverpool and the Boroughs in the south of London.
You WILL then witness the overcrowding and stress caused by the criminal behaviour of our ex ruling classes. :o
I read of one school in the south of London that has 24 different nationalities IN ONE CLASS! How can that be right....not only for the children themselves but also the teachers?
If the UK was the size of Australia/America or even France...we probably wouldn't be having this typed discussion now. Those countries are big enough to absorb them...whether they could afford them is another issue.
Quote from: perseus on June 26, 2012, 07: PM
It's ok Lucy, Julie's just told me what i already knew. It's done nothing bad to our town, which is what i asked.
I gave you a concrete example of wages being held down by the Poles.
That is 'something bad'.
Congratulations Perseus, you must be the first person to start a discussion and then stifle it with boredom.
To Kipperdip.....during your rant on the 26th (Post No.17) you accused me of coming in "off thread "etc.etc.etc. To answer your question regarding the importance of the nature of the debate " YES" I do understand. ( My turn to shout!!!).I initially refrained from replying ,however your post apologising for the same misdemeanour proved too irresistible to miss. (No.55).
People living in "glass houses" and "stones "came to mind. They call it Karma!!! Sorry to stray again.
Quote from: perseus on June 27, 2012, 02: PM
Especially given that 1,000,000 of them are Poles who are, to all intents and purposes the same as us, just born in a different place.
Is that a veiled statement that the only immigrants who you consider to be "the same as us" are white Europeans?
Yes, no or the usual 2,000 word babbling reply that never gets to the point will do.
Quote from: perseus on June 27, 2012, 08: PM
Donkey Kong, the conclusions you jumped to regarding my words on this and the Freud thread say a lot more about you and the way you appear to think than they do about me. . .
No.
I just asked you a question about what you'd written.
Your answer pretty much sums up what I thought though. To be honest I feel a bit of pity for you if this is what floats your boat.
Quote from: perseus on June 28, 2012, 09: AM
I actually think the discussions between Mr K and I are amongst only a handful of actual 'thought out' points of view offered on here.
You do know that talking to yourself is one of the first signs of insanity don't you?
And that answering yourself means that it's pretty much nailed on?
You do? Good.
Quote from: perseus on June 28, 2012, 11: AM
That was deliberate irony, yes?
You tell me, it's not me who tries to convince everyone on here that I'm some kind of superbrain...