Dead.
http://news.sky.com/
I guess that this announcement will be met with celebration and the usual vilification from people in the NE. She did do some good and some bad but she didn't use her position for her own personal gain unlike Blair and his cohorts. Just look at David Miliband and our Labour Councillors.
All of you who live in ex-council houses at least owe her a debt of gratitude.
Internationally she was very good and enhanced the World's perception of the UK. She was not a Europhile, the last PM who was and which some of you should applaud.
She might not have been the best Prime Minister we have ever had but she was head and shoulders better than the ones who came after.
Lady Thatcher may have shook her mortal coil but she will forever live on in the hearts of all true conservatives.
Regardless of one's personal political beliefs, there is something distinctly distasteful about the way that some people are crowing about this on parts of the internet. Wasn't John O' Farrell lambasted for similar behaviour in the run up to the Eastleigh by-election? I'm no fan of the Conservative cause, but to shriek delight at the death of a frail old lady is, to my mind, plain sick.
Two things that I'd say about Thatcher:
- She wasn't born with a silver spoon in her mouth like the current crowd
- Whether you agreed with her or not, there's little doubt that she believed in what she was doing. It's an odd thing to say, but all too often politicians don't. When Thatcher was running the show, at least we knew who The Leader was - and if you want to get from A to B that usually helps.
Quote from: steveL on April 08, 2013, 02: PM
Two things that I'd say about Thatcher:
- She wasn't born with a silver spoon in her mouth like the current crowd
- Whether you agreed with her or not, there's little doubt that she believed in what she was doing. It's an odd thing to say, but all too often politicians don't. When Thatcher was running the show, at least we knew who The Leader was - and if you want to get from A to B that usually helps.
I believe we have found something we can both agree on, Steve.
Quote from: SRMoore on April 08, 2013, 03: PM
Quote from: steveL on April 08, 2013, 02: PM
Two things that I'd say about Thatcher:
- She wasn't born with a silver spoon in her mouth like the current crowd
- Whether you agreed with her or not, there's little doubt that she believed in what she was doing. It's an odd thing to say, but all too often politicians don't. When Thatcher was running the show, at least we knew who The Leader was - and if you want to get from A to B that usually helps.
I believe we have found something we can both agree on, Steve.
I disagree.
Maggie was 87.
I think her life amounted to more than what stance she took on Europe - one way or the other.
Strikes me that with you, KP, it doesn't matter what the subject is - for you all roads lead to the Treaty of Rome.
There is certainly a silver Spoon in the Thatcher family today. Mark has a title.
Her death brings back memories of so much conflict ...the miners strike, Falklands, Northern Ireland, Poll Tax Riots as well as the civil unrest and terrible crime around the country. As a child I worried if Hartlepool would be the next town set alight and on the news.
On the flip side we had banking yuppies climbing up the BMW series making a killing off high inflation.
It would be well to remember she had to be forced out of office kicking and screaming.
The Party knew at the end she was an electoral liability and as mad as a hatter.
I smile when I see the re-writing of history to deify her.
Theres no question that she was a Leader, but i personally question where she led us.
Thats about as kind as i could be on her demise.
She instigated a program that destroyed whole swathes of British Industry certainly in the North of England & Scotland.
But an even more unpalatable truth was that in destroying those Industries, she destroyed whole communities, set Father against Son, Brother against Brother & caused wounds in families that have never healed.
I take no pleasure in her passing, but i won`t be shedding any tears either.
In amongst a lot of vile comments I've read today I came across a tweet from the Liverpool Branch of Young Labour simply quoting Martin Luther King Jnr which I felt put so many of their party and others to shame.
QuoteI mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy.
I look forward to the day when the Labour party has politicians with even half of the integrity of these young supporters.
I hope the bitterness is buried with her.
Yes but not unexpected views from a man of his persuasions!
If I may I will dispute his views on ship building as I had personal experience of this. It was the Unions that destroyed ship building and it started in the 60s. The working practices that the unions employed were destructive to the industry.
Whenever we dry docked a ship we never know when she was coming out despite contractual dates. There were inevitably strikes at the beginning and end of the dry dock so that extra overtime could be 'earned'.
A ship I joined immediately after a dry docking sailed on Christmas Eve. On Christmas Day we started having bilge fires and our ship's engineers had to be put on six hours on six hours off instead of the normal four on eight off. This lasted until the ship was in the Red Sea some three weeks later. All because of the sad state the ship was left in by the ship yard. Inevitably, the owners stopped having ships built/repaired in the UK. The poor workmanship and the extra costs all brought about by restrictive working practices. The unions were to blame for the demise of ship building and many other industries.
In the 80s, after the deplorable 70s most of us welcomed the curbs on the unions, after-all we voted for politicians to run the country not union officials.
Quote from: whatabouthisthen on April 09, 2013, 09: AM
In the 80s, after the deplorable 70s most of us welcomed the curbs on the unions, after-all we voted for politicians to run the country not union officials.
Is this an example of Mrs Thatchers legacy & why Unions are neccessary ??? ??? Camerons "we are all in this together" soundbite is shown up for what it is in this article ( Bit surprised The Mail ran this )
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306629/Bosses-pay-16---workers-1-rise-Growing-gulf-staff-revealed-average-chief-executive-earning-nearly-300-000.html
Except, Fred, the reality is that -as any private sector union member will tell you- the unions couldn't give a flying duck whether or not we got a pay rise. In fact they don't even engage with our company when it comes to negotiations. Just as long as we pay our subs and show solidarity with our public sector brothers & sisters they will send us a copy of pravda every month to remind us how evil the tories are.
Quote from: SRMoore on April 10, 2013, 08: AM
Except, Fred, the reality is that -as any private sector union member will tell you- the unions couldn't give a flying duck whether or not we got a pay rise. In fact they don't even engage with our company when it comes to negotiations. Just as long as we pay our subs and show solidarity with our public sector brothers & sisters they will send us a copy of pravda every month to remind us how evil the tories are.
As a long standing member of a union i can only tell you this simple fact about a trade unionism.
A Union is only as Strong as its Members.
Being in a union doesn`t give you a given right to improved pay & benefits..... you have to fight for them from the newest member to the oldest.
Ask yourself this........ Why are Unions less effective in the Private Sector ???
I`ll give you a clue.......... if your brave (Or Foolish) enough to stand up for yourself & your colleagues & take on the role of an accredited shop steward, you are quite likely to be the recipient of "The Black Spot"............ Don`t tell me it doesn`t exist Shane......... I have been the victim of it on several occasions as have several of my colleagues.
Another Legacy of Mrs Thatchers.
Thats all i am going post on this thread..... we hold differing views on Thatcher, lets leave it at that.
I joined Unite the Union last year and have been bitterly disappointed.
They are not interested in fighting for a pay rise (mine has been 0% for years) they are not even interested in fighting major redundancies (I have seen good workers discarded like used tea bags).
When an announcement is made they huff and puff for 5 minutes, take no action and then send you a leaflet on ambulance chasing type injury claims or get a gift voucher if you can get some other mug to join.
...I was more than amused when subs went up over 4% and I got no answer to my comment that a pay rise of the same magnitude would be nice.
The union appears to be like HBC, complacent and highly paid directors surviving off the fact that there is little choice.
(I am persisting in the hope they improve and I vote for change when given the chance.)
Speaking also as a union member (Unite) I can only tell you of my experience and that is that every time we have requested information/support/representation from our union branch we have been ignored.
None of our shop stewards have had any issue with being mistreated by the management of our company. In fact, we seem to have a decent working relationship with them which usually enables matters to be resolved quickly.
Just like the relationship HBC have with UNISON only the company isn't paying our union protection money to keep a good relationship. ;) That's the excuse HBC give us for the £100k a year union budget, right?
Nice of the Durham Miners to hold a party in honour of Mrs Thatcher.
I don't see how you can condemn nastiness by being even more nasty yourself. A bit of grace while making their own valid point would have done the image of the collieries far more good. There was an opportunity here to show that they were better than Thatcher - they flunct it.
Fred c. I never said that there wasn't a need for unions but you can't have unions dictating to Parliament which started in the 60s and carried on into the fiasco of the 70s. It was because of this undemocratic behaviour that I then handed in my union membership.
You are still looking at this Union interference now in this town. Unison run the Labour Party. Why else was the guarantee of 300 jobs being located to Hartlepool turned down last year - because it would have meant the loss of 47 jobs being transferred to the private sector and the weakening of union power. Edwin Jeffries was allowed in to the Labour Councillors meeting and access to the pink paper concerning the proposed contract. Why? Contractual information that only Councillors where allowed to see.
Couldn't agree more not4me
Quote from: not4me on April 10, 2013, 02: PM
I don't see how you can condemn nastiness by being even more nasty yourself. A bit of grace while making their own valid point would have done the image of the collieries far more good. There was an opportunity here to show that they were better than Thatcher - they flunct it.
Absolutely agree. Dan Hodges (Labour man) wrote a piece for the Telegraph today which was pretty much spot on I thought.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100211461/if-labour-cant-show-restraint-today-it-will-say-more-about-them-than-it-does-about-margaret-thatcher/ (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100211461/if-labour-cant-show-restraint-today-it-will-say-more-about-them-than-it-does-about-margaret-thatcher/)
Quote from: whatabouthisthen on April 10, 2013, 02: PM
Fred c. I never said that there wasn't a need for unions but you can't have unions dictating to Parliament which started in the 60s and carried on into the fiasco of the 70s. It was because of this undemocratic behaviour that I then handed in my union membership.
You are still looking at this Union interference now in this town. Unison run the Labour Party. Why else was the guarantee of 300 jobs being located to Hartlepool turned down last year - because it would have meant the loss of 47 jobs being transferred to the private sector and the weakening of union power. Edwin Jeffries was allowed in to the Labour Councillors meeting and access to the pink paper concerning the proposed contract. Why? Contractual information that only Councillors where allowed to see.
I did intend not to contribute further to this post.....However
I never said that Unions should be able to dictate to Government, Unions are there for the representation & protection of their members in dealing with Employers, if however your naive enough to believe employers are always blameless, there is nothing else i can add.
You are though perfectly correct in your appraisal of Some Union activity within HBC, you are also correct in your point about the possibilty of losing 47 jobs, but gaining a possible 300.
I would also suspect you are correct in your assertion about one of "The Orangutans" having access to Meetings where Council Business is discussed. (If true its Disgraceful)
On the point of "Union Involvement", i was in attendance at a full council meeting when a member of the public put forward to drummond ( I Believe ) the point of ratepayers funding the Unison Representative`s full & part time (at a cost of approx £100,000) & he should consider stopping the practice.......
The hysteria is way over the top.
Why so much effort wasted trying to force everyone to kneel in memory of the sainted Margret?
The majority of people could not care less so why don't those who see this as a great national tragedy weep on each others shoulders and leave the rest of us to get on with life.
Whenever there is such an event (death of a Royal etc) I simply switch off the telly and stop reading the newspapers for a few days until sanity returns.
The woman was very divisive and for everyone who gained under her rule there was one who lost out.
She was not universally popular so why try and claim otherwise?
Quote from: perseus on April 10, 2013, 03: PM
This is interesting too.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/09/russell-brand-margaret-thatcher?CMP=twt_gu
Russell Brand's take on things.
Interesting in the sense that it's completely random enough to have been written by Alan Barclay ;)
Quote from: Stig of the Seaton Dump on April 10, 2013, 09: AM
I joined Unite the Union last year and have been bitterly disappointed.
If I had a penny for everyone who joined a Union and then asked what
they were they going to do for
him.........................
I don't think anybody on this thread has even tried to claim Lady Thatcher was universally popular. In fact this is the most civilised discussion on the topic I have seen in recent days.
Members have accepted that each have their own opinions and accepted them whilst sharing their own.
Who would have thought it'd take Thatcher to make members of this forum behave like civilised adults towards each other - without the use of police ;)
Quote from: SRMoore on April 10, 2013, 03: PM
I don't think anybody on this thread has even tried to claim Lady Thatcher was universally popular. In fact this is the most civilised discussion on the topic I have seen in recent days.
Members have accepted that each have their own opinions and accepted them whilst sharing their own.
Who would have thought it'd take Thatcher to make members of this forum behave like civilised adults towards each other - without the use of police ;)
And Horses ;)
Anybody watching the debates in the Commons and Lords? Quite entertaining. A few tributes with stings in the tail from all Parties, particularly from the Left as to be expected. In the main wholesome in praise. Some very good anecdotes.
Oh dear, the outright vilification has started from Labour.
I had thought personality cults (or swap the 'l' for an 'n' if you like) were nowdays confined to the likes of North Korea.
Nice to see the upper classes continue their centuries old tradition of fawning subservience to their masters.
Quote from: whatabouthisthen on April 10, 2013, 05: PM
Oh dear, the outright vilification has started from Labour.
I find it significant that all the right w(h)ingers who adore the most divisive PM in memory keep up her tradition of brooking no dissent!
All the nut-job newspapers are foaming at the mouth because not everyone is overcome with (faux) grief.
Time to remember lads. This is the woman who had to be dragged kicking and screaming from office leaving her teethmarks on the door jamb of No. 10.
She is the type of bong-eyed Tory ( nutcases, fruit cakes and closet racists) Cameron is doing his best to neuter and Farage is actively trying to recruit!
Whilst I respect your views mk1, I believe you are deliberately misinterpreting the views of those who supported Lady Thatcher and her views.
I for one will not be biting.
Quote from: SRMoore on April 11, 2013, 10: PM
Whilst I respect your views mk1, I believe you are deliberately misinterpreting the views of those who supported Lady Thatcher and her views.
Au contraire.
If you want to know what 'misinterpreting' is read the hysterical screeching headlines in the right wing press. They are attempting to blacken the name of everyone who does nor fall weeping on the coffin.
Thatcher, by any definition of the words, was a far right zealot. Partisan, vindictive and totally unresponsive to the needs of anyone other than her own kind. She would never get a place in the Cameron cabinet and to think otherwise is a delusion. Read todays Daily Mail and see how all those who had a hand in her removal are vilified and slandered.
Far right? Strange that she would end up being regarded as a centre right leader and actually setting up a center right policy organisation. Ohh yes, and the fact that Blair acknowledged that she played to the middle ground -hence him never reversing her policies.
You say 'her own kind', I assume you mean sons and daughters of shop keepers who dare to have aspiration.
The unions are the mafia with fear of blood.
Quote from: SRMoore on April 11, 2013, 11: PM
Far right? Strange that she would end up being regarded as a centre right leader and actually setting up a center right policy organisation. Ohh yes, and the fact that Blair acknowledged that she played to the middle ground -hence him never reversing her policies.
You say 'her own kind', I assume you mean sons and daughters of shop keepers who dare to have aspiration.
You should have watched Andrew Neil tonight. He explained when he first discussed the policy of selling Council houses to the tenants. Mrs T was aghast and said '
but they are not our sort of people'.
True she changed her mind when votes were at stake but her comments about immigrants taking over Sydney (as reported over the weekend) leave no doubts as to her real thoughts.
Far right indeed and she became so barking the party had to boot her out.
You should realise by now that trying the old
if you dont agree with me you must be labour retort wont work. Blair was just as manic and Maggie and even more crackers as he believed God talked to him personally.
Thatchers aspirations? You don't need many of them when you marry a millionaire!
I did watch Andrew Neil and you, again, deliberately twisted what was said. 'but it won't help our people' is what she is reported to have said. To which A.N. Clarified that she was talking about the middle class.
Let's stop the rhetoric and keep it factual eh?
Just as an aside. Don't you think Neil was rather rude to the Scots lady. He interrupted her several times and she hardly got a word in. Was she there as a bit of eye candy because he wouldn't let her talk?
Perhaps she was too sympathetic to Mrs T for a Scot.
Quote from: SRMoore on April 12, 2013, 08: AM
I did watch Andrew Neil and you, again, deliberately twisted what was said. 'but it won't help our people' is what she is reported to have said. To which A.N. Clarified that she was talking about the middle class.
Let's stop the rhetoric and keep it factual eh?
Indeed. When did millionaires become 'middle class'?
This is a 1951 millionaire by the way.
I don't know why we are wasting time having a
ding dong which is dead boring
Will it make number 1?