HartlepoolPost Forum

I find it strange, almost everyday for over 10 years or so UKIP supporters have been hijacking practically every topic on the local, national and international threads on this message board.  They've been banging on and on and on about an in/out referendum on EU membership during all that time.

Now here we are in the early stages of a vote on exactly that issue.... and there isn't a peep out of a single UKIP member on here.

Because they need a 'stay in'vote to survive. If it is an exit then UKIP are history. They need a windmill to tilt at in order to satisy their hunger for power. Just another bunch of lying politicians who are going to sacrifice Hartlepool in the upcoming local elections in order to further UKIPs national agenda.
Mind you we did have a stupid letter in the Mail recently that compared Cameron to Chamberlain and Munich. Just shows how ill-informed about UK history they are  they are to believe the two events are in any way linked.

but even if it's a vote to stay in UKIP are still history. Sure they will continue to bleat on but refusing to accept defeat would display a lack of respect for democracy - they will say that the vote was rigged, the press coverage biased and so on.... but the Brits have always hated a bad loser - it's so un-British

Looks like  UKIP are writing headlines for The Times.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-35625336


(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/923/acw0LR.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pnacw0LRj)

I'm not commenting as a 'UKIP' member (as I'm not one) but as a perplexed visitor to this site.
Perplexed because the reason of the birth of this site was to highlight the pathetic way HBC is, and has been run by (mainly) labour cllrs over the years.

The waste of money on vanity events and initiatives. The financial black hole of organisations that are being, or will be investigated, by police.
The millions of pounds of the working men and women in this town that is, allegedly, unaccounted for.
And I'm with the Hartlepool Post all of the way.

However, I'm perplexed because whenever anyone points out the similar scenario (although it runs into billions!) that has occurred in Europe for the last 21 years of non audited accounts, they are called racist, xenophobic etc. etc. ad infinitum. Yawn.

The latest, not accepted, accounts indicated a 'missing' £4.5 billion.
We pay in £55 million a day to be a member and yet people on here stand up for the system by stating 'we get more back'.
Totally ignoring the missing monies and lack of financial accounting.

However, when Ged was in charge of Manor Residents accounts he was pilloried by the same people for 'irregularities'!

My position is I don't want to be ripped off by anyone, be it HBC or the busted flush that is the EU.
You can't defend the indefensible. Although the 'usual suspects' on here will try.  Yawn.

Quote from: grim reaper on February 22, 2016, 12: PM
.

However, I'm perplexed because whenever anyone points out the similar scenario (although it runs into billions!) that has occurred in Europe for the last 21 years of non audited accounts, they are called racist, xenophobic etc. etc. ad infinitum. Yawn.

In general all the anti-EU drivel we get here is 'racist, and xenophobic'. I am sure you can find graft and corruption in the EU but then so you can in the UK.  It is not a desire to become more transparent that drives the 'Anti mob'  rather a deep rooted hatred of all foriegners in general and  brown skinned ones in particular. That and  an absurd belief that the UK is 'special' in some way and can learn nothing from anyone else. 
The root of the  opposition to the EU is the innablity to accept  the days of the Empire are gone.

I think it's very obvious that all those coming out against membership of the EU aren't all a bunch of xenophobic racists. I haven't even made my own mind up yet and see merit on both sides of the argument. That said, I can't say the same about the UKIP voices on here; I'm quite clear that their own root objections are much more narrowly based even if they are often wrapped up in other arguments, economic or otherwise.

As a matter of fact, I don't even think their views accurately reflect the official view of UKIP but unfortunately, UKIP's drive to swell their membership has opened the door too widely and let in all sorts of cranks. 

I too will listen to all sides of the debate before voting. I especially want to know what the situation is regarding TTIP if we leave.

In terms of 'why stay?' Simon Sweeney from York University put it better than I could.

What did the EEC/EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multipolar global future.

I suppose on the down side (according to some) it's enabled some people who are 'different' from us to live here.

Quote from: DRiddle on February 21, 2016, 04: PM
I find it strange, almost everyday for over 10 years or so UKIP supporters have been hijacking practically every topic on the local, national and international threads on this message board.  They've been banging on and on and on about an in/out referendum on EU membership during all that time.

Now here we are in the early stages of a vote on exactly that issue.... and there isn't a peep out of a single UKIP member on here.

Unbelievable, over the same period the anti UKIP usual suspects have been doing exactly the same, you will probably find they have hijacked more, trouble is it is so predictably boring, I think it is time to stop reading this site until the referendum is over, you can guarantee that the pages will be filled with the usual crass comments, of course they will say they are right and everybody else is wrong as they don't have the intelligence to think for themselves.  Amen.

but when the referendum is over with what the hell are UKIP going to talk about? Not something as mundane as council tax. The two of them sat like speechless gargoyles at last Thursdays' meeting.

Quote from: Mican on February 23, 2016, 11: AM
............. of course they will say they are right and everybody else is wrong as they don't have the intelligence to think for themselves.  Amen.

A bit rich coming from someone who supports a party where the entry requirement is to take an IQ test and only those who score below maroon level are admitted!

Mican, what used to happen was the regular users of this message board would start a topic on..... anything..... a few UKIP supporters would spin the focus of the topic around to the EU.

We could be talking about dog mess, Jackson's Landing, unemployment, the Akers-Belchers, ward Jackson park or basically anything at all and it would get turned around to the EU somehow.

Eventually the administrators of the site created a separate topic specifically for European political issues. This one we're commenting on now. All of a sudden Ukippers quietened down.

Now, bang smack in the middle of the turn of events they've been waiting for since the 1970's.... they're pin drop quiet. I just find that a bit bizarre.

Could it be they've realised they've been out manoeuvred by a Conservative Party who have covered both bases? Essentially the Tories have made the outcome irrelevant in terms of the future of their party. 

Ukip on the other hand appear stuffed either way. If people vote in, you won't get another referendum in the remaining lifetime of most UKIP members.

If people vote out, the Tories and BOJO will claim the glory.

Quote from: not4me on February 23, 2016, 02: PM
but when the referendum is over with what the hell are UKIP going to talk about?

I presume they will campaign to  get laws passed that favour the big business donors who bankroll them. Given how they are completely in the pocket of the tobacco and drinks industry we can expect smoking to be made compulsory and pubs allowed to open in graveyards........err .............I mean.............

Quote from: DRiddle on February 23, 2016, 03: PM
. All of a sudden Ukippers quietened down.

Now, bang smack in the middle of the turn of events they've been waiting for since the 1970's.... they're pin drop quiet. I just find that a bit bizarre.

Typical behaviour of a national political party.  The local Kippers have been ordered by head office to stand in every seat in May and that order will be obeyed.   Kippers know that splitting the vote means Labour will win the seats but they don't care because the  objective is to get brand recognition for UKIP.  Hartlepool is way down the list for these bong-eyed obsessives and that is why they are keeping their heads down. They know they are complete and utter hypocrites and lack the courage to admit their deception.  Typical lying politicians who will crap on anyone or anything because they hate 'Yourope' with a passion.
The  formerly vocal UKIP mob are  now too scared to  come here face up to the fact they have been rumbled.

I noticed that Philip Broughton has been on the regional Sunday Politics a couple of times recently as the UKIP spokesman.

Quote from: mk1 on February 23, 2016, 03: PM

Quote from: Mican on February 23, 2016, 11: AM
............. of course they will say they are right and everybody else is wrong as they don't have the intelligence to think for themselves.  Amen.

A bit rich coming from someone who supports a party where the entry requirement is to take an IQ test and only those who score below maroon level are admitted!

My last comment on this, judging by your comment that I support a certain party because I disagree with some of the crap you come out with and without any kind of evidence to support it, I can only assume you would be lucky to reach maroon level.

There's a strong argument from Kippers in video form here  ::)

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/9296564?1456224586

As I said, Maroons!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBi-KXc0CRk

Note the line: 'They want  prison-ers to vote'

and only a maroon would make up something so obviously a lie.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/06/uk-ban-on-prisoner-voting-is-lawful-eus-highest-court-rules

Just on a serious note, I personally don't have a problem with giving prisoners the vote.

I suppose there's an argument that those on a full life term don't deserve/need one, but that's a very small number of people (in Britain at least).

Just because you're in prison, for what could be a relatively small* offense in the grand scheme of things, doesn't mean you should be denied a say politically on your life on the outside.

Indeed, given politicians have such a key say on the penal system and prison reform, especially under Gove, that's all the more reason to give prisoners the vote in my opinion.

Wasn't it Dostoevsky who said something about judging the civility of a society by the way it treats its prisoners?

If the biggest criticism of me a UKIP supporter can make is "You want to give prisoners the vote", i'll take that on the chin.



*Small in comparison to environmental crime, state sponsored genocide, gargantuan scale tax evasion etc.

I'm as concerned with whether or not the law which is made is correct and appropriate, rather than who makes it to be honest.

Mugabe made a lot of laws in Zimbabwe, likewise Mussolini made a few in Italy.

Each had the mandate to do so (to varying extents). Should a country be just left to enforce any laws they like?

By that rationale, we should just let ISIS crack on chucking people off buildings then eh?

I find it bizarre that in a civilised society a person can be denied their democratic right to vote because of (for example) a string of motoring offences. 

Quote from: kipperdip on February 24, 2016, 10: AM
what is important is that an unelected, unaccountable, institution can, as things stand, strike down ANY law made by our democratically elected legislature.

So you are against the House Of Lords on principle then?

Quote from: kipperdip on February 26, 2016, 08: AM
DR, in your rush to defend voting rights for prisoners you place the legislative procedures and practices of England (in this case)on a par to those of Mugabe, Mussolini and  ISIS -

Err no..............on par with the rest of Europe as a matter of fact.

Notice the open and unapologetic  racist manages to get the three bogey-men into the frame.
 
Mugabe = Black people.
Mussolini = Europe
ISIS = Muslims.

Quote from: kipperdip on February 26, 2016, 08: AM
I personally would venture to say that more scrutiny, due process and accountability has gone into the formation of our British laws than has prevailed under Robert Mugabe?

But would you say that British laws are 'better' than German laws and French laws?
Is it that you believe 'British' laws are somehow superior than every other laws and that 'Britain' only makes perfect laws?


Talking of Mugabe how is your campaign to 'Keep Rhodesia White' going?

Seems the Swiss are on track to  reject the attempts to stir up hatred by  their own right-wing loonies.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35680760

People in Switzerland are on course to reject a plan to automatically expel foreigners who commit minor crimes, early projections suggest.
The proposal has been put forward by the right-wing Swiss People's Party.
The vote comes amid growing unease at rising immigration and the problems which, the party says, come with it.
But opponents said the law would create a two-tier justice system unfairly targeting foreigners, who make up around 25% of Switzerland's population.

Quote from: mk1 on February 23, 2016, 07: PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBi-KXc0CRk

Interestingly, Frank Skinner mentioned the song on his Saturday Breakfast show and the fact that as far as he knew no one had been approached asking permission to 'use' their original song.

Here's a view from a friend who has lived in Spain for many years.


There is a lot of scare talk in the media, all based on supposition with no facts to back any of it up on both sides. Most Brits here want to stay, as they misguidedly believe that they will lose health benefits and fear they will be expelled which is, of course, absolute rubbish.

Nobody can foretell what will happen in the long term, but things will remain much as they are now until new treaties are thrashed out. With our trade imbalance with the rest of Europe, it is sensible to assume that they will not wish it to be otherwise - it will just not be in their interest, so I cannot see much change tradewise with them, but we will have added opportunities elsewhere as well.

Of course all financial institutions hate any kind of change. As things are at present, the status quo serves the fat cats extremely well.

Most Europeans wish the UK to stay, because we pay the second largest contribution, and this will be sorely missed.

The EU as it currently stands is a spendthrift, undemocratic, corrupt club for hasbeen politicos which is not subject to any kind of checks and balances, and audits are unheard of. Expenses are unchecked, and to run two parliaments just to please the French is an absolute waste of funds. It is a good thing in principle but a disaster as it stands. If it were reformed and brought under democratic control with financial discipline then it would be great. But this is unlikely to happen. Cameron, with the threat of a Brexit, could not achieve any worthwhile results. If you choose to stay in, you have thrown in the towel, and it will never change. As it stands it suits the French very well and, because of history the Germans do not want to upset the French so things will continue as they are until it all collapses under its own weight.

After this rant you will no doubt think that I am in favour of getting the hell out of it, before we waste more of the billions thant we have pumped into it. It would be better served put into the home social system, but then again, that is not necessarily the case with the bunch of nitwits you have in Westminster.

Quote from: Hartlepudlion on May 04, 2016, 04: PM

to run two parliaments just to please the French is an absolute waste of funds............ As it stands it suits the French very well and, because of history the Germans do not want to upset the French..............

That is the thanks the French get for saving the British Ar*se (twice) in the Crimean War!

I can't see the link, mk1, between the Crimian War and the EU. As for saving a??es, I suggest the UK has saved more French ones than they Brits. But that is another argument and has nothing to do with the EU.
Having two Parliaments in Brussels and another in Strausberg just to satisfy French pride is a total waste of money.

And here's another.

The European Investment Bank spent almost €20billion last year in supporting credit provision for small and medium-sized companies last year but British businesses didn't receive even one penny. The U.K. Was the only country in the EU NOT to receive any funds, a report by the Bank shows. Germany, France, Spain and Italy received a combined €14.4 billion. This is despite Britain owning a 16% share in the EIB having invested €3.3 billion.
Not only are we bank rolling a corrupt, free-spending and non-accountable organisation we have to defend it by paying more into NATO than any other country in the EU. Only the French come close in defence spending.

At the moment I am undecided but the more I research the EU the more I am inclined to leave.

Quote from: Hartlepudlion on May 04, 2016, 07: PM
As for saving a??es, I suggest the UK has saved more French ones than they Brits..

I know you think that is the case but the example I gave you was to illustrate a point. You have been brought up to believe the Crimean war was an all-british affair where the plucky little brits took on Russia and humbled her. Truth is France was the major power in that war. Her army dwarfed the British Army and it was French Cavalry that rescued the  survivors from the Charge Of The Light Brigade and it was French troops who stormed Sevastopol whilst the British attack was repulsed.  Britain and France have been close allies since 1900 and the constant knee-jerk sh*tting on the French is juvenile and unwarranted.

Quote from: Hartlepudlion on May 04, 2016, 07: PM


The European Investment Bank spent almost €20billion last year in supporting credit provision for small and medium-sized companies last year but British businesses didn't receive even one penny. The U.K. Was the only country in the EU NOT to receive any funds, a report by the Bank shows. Germany, France, Spain and Italy received a combined €14.4 billion. This is despite Britain owning a 16% share in the EIB having invested €3.3 billion.
Not only are we bank rolling a corrupt, free-spending and non-accountable organisation we have to defend it by paying more into NATO than any other country in the EU. Only the French come close in defence spending.

Yep thats right. All them lazy degos are sittng on their arses doing nowt whilst the plucky hard working brits are the only country that pays in anything. We are carrying everyone else and without us the EU would fall apart.  We are so exceptional.....................

Again Hartlepudlion, your first post on this topic is spot on, i say this knowing the last time i made just such a comment, you mentioned your thread was not an endorsement for UKIP, I take your point but on this occasion will you accept that it was UKIP that gave you this referendum and at least a choice,
Be careful what you vote for. Isn`t it all so exiting.

Quote from: beanzontoast on May 08, 2016, 10: PM

Be careful what you vote for. Isn`t it all so exiting.

Is it the exiting that's so exciting? ...

Latest news from comical Cameron;
If we leave then we will not be eligible to play football in Europe.
We will only be able to purchase 'European' made cars with left-hand drive. Suntan lotion below factor 50 will be banned and it will be an offence not to apply 50+ lotion.
A 'facility' tax will apply to all from the UK entering Europe...this will start at 20%. Etc. etc.
Yeah, I've just made that lot up....just like he does, with his 'project fear'.

I wonder which role in Europe he has in line for himself, after 2020?
He no doubt has something lined up, just as Bliar did. http://youtu.be/j0pwXLtvt2w tries to give a more balanced aspect to the European conundrum.
'Safer in Europe'? Then why are the many Schengen countries now closing their borders to the uncontrolled flow of immigrants?
How are WE safer when convicted foreign murderers and rapists can't be ejected from this country because judges in Europe say jails in some European countries are unsafe for them.
We went into the ERM and it nearly crippled us.
We almost entered into the Euro and it WOULD have crippled us.
If we join poverty stricken Greece/Spain/Portugal it WILL cripple us.
BREXIT!

Ed. Balls! Of all the dozy Labour clowns to wheel out of the cupboard, Osborne wheels out the doziest.
When Balls was shadow minister, waving his arms in the 'flatlining' motion, Osborne mocked him and said he was clueless regarding finance. (I agree).
Now he says we ought to take notice of him???  ;D  ;D  ;D

Likewise Cable. He demanded that we join the Euro, otherwise our country would become '3rd world'. He is a doddery old fool and hypocrite.  :(

Osborne...the man that put vat on pasties. The man that has brought in further rises to the minimum wage, whether firms can afford it or not.  :o  ::)

Who in their right mind would take any notice of these three financial clowns?

If there is any good reason to 'Brexit', the pontifications of these clowns proves it.
Boris Johnson is right, what the European hierarchy require is a non regulated, unelected  cadre, controlled from Germany.
Germany required thousands of workers, (we're told), therefore they opened the floodgates to the Middle East (and latterly, Africa) and now there are over 2.5 million of them across Europe.
They are even travelling from the Dominican Republic to Turkey/Greece and pretending to be from Syria, to enable them to access Europe!  :o

Spain is on its knees...50% unemployment of its youngsters...why didn't Germany open its doors to the indigenous European unemployed, helping Spain at the same time?

Another video for your perusal;
www.https://youtu.be/67s9XQB31pE 

The people that ought to be talking our country UP on the world stage, are talking it down, as though we are nothing without the likes of Brussels, Spain, Italy, Romania, Poland etc.
Total boll*cks! We can work with any/all of them but will not be ruled by them. Vote OUT.
BREXIT.

I see Farage is so frightened of his upcoming drubbing he is talking up the  possibility of a 'Neverendum'. The man sees his whole political career vanishing overnight so he is deSperate to keep all the deluded fruitcakes and looneys in his back pocket.

Deluded little englanders who get their history from Battler Britain comics and  constantly refight WW2 in order to make up for their small di*cks.

Ingerland..........Ingerland...............Ingerland..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYLm5w5o10Q

Quote from: grim reaper on May 17, 2016, 02: PM
why didn't Germany open its doors to the indigenous European unemployed,

Only a thicko UKIP fruitcake would castigate  Germany for  having open borders  and then berate Germany for  having closed borders!

Which is it Einstein?

Quote from: grim reaper on May 17, 2016, 02: PM

Germany required thousands of workers, (we're told), therefore they opened the floodgates to the Middle East (and latterly, Africa) and now there are over 2.5 million of them across Europe.
 

Just how thick can you get?

The reason we have so many refugees from Libya, Syria and Afghanistan (by far the bulk of the  numbers) is because di*ck waving little englanders decided they had to invade  other nations in order to prove how great they were. The refugee crisis is a direct result of flag-waving patriots who are always looking to start wars. 
Germany has been the dominant power in Europe since 1900 and get used to the fact. Nor content with needing Russia to  save us  from Germany in WW2 we also needed a Russian to help us beat Germany in 1966!

You need help...you are so full of tremulous invective, you simply read into other peoples posts what YOU want to read.
You really are a sad case, which is why I don't normally respond to your idiosyncratic drivel.

I put 'open doors' as a manner of speech. Of course, to your demented train of thought, you had to insert 'borders'.
No mention of the suggestion WHY they didn't invite the young people of Spain to work in Germany.
No, you prefer to nit pick and try to be sarcastic.
You fail..in every which way, you fail.
Go and ask for your medicine, Loser.

Quote from: grim reaper on May 17, 2016, 05: PM

You really are a sad case, which is why I don't normally respond to your idiosyncratic drivel.

And yet you do...............

Quote from: grim reaper on May 17, 2016, 05: PMYou fail..in every which way, you fail.
Go and ask for your medicine, Loser.

Yes I fail and  yet here you are forced into defending your 'fruitcake and looney' views.

Your great leader Farage is so jumpy he is preparing the ground for his defeat and  trying to find ways of fooling the low intelligence chain-smoking heavy-drinking pot-bellied middle -aged men (who form the bulk of UKIP) into following him into oblivion.

How UKIP sees itself...........

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/924/Maz8mi.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/poMaz8mij)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/922/VH2DmZ.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmVH2DmZj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/921/KIwhGQ.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/plKIwhGQj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/923/bYrQV2.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pnbYrQV2j)

Here's another ass licker....Microsoft.
You know them, charge a fortune for their dodgy systems and then make them obsolete within a couple of years.....XP, Vista, 7, 8, 10....

They are now saying leaving the EU will damage us and Microsoft through loss of sales.
You mean Microsoft worry about loss of sales to the likes of Romania, Greece, Italy, Poland, Spain etc. Counties that are struggling to keep their head above water, never mind which 'system' to buy.  :P

Ergo, Microsoft don't think Hong Kong, China, Russia, India, Australia, Africa, South America, Canada etc. etc. are worth worrying about...the basket cases in the EU count for more?
Who writes this stuff for these people.....MK1???  ::)  ::)
BREXIT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJWUmSbt0Ms

Quote from: kipperdip on May 18, 2016, 08: AM

An organisation, which for 20 consecutive years has been refused having it's accounts signed off by the ICA (International Court of Auditors) due to systemic and endemic fraud

Incorrect, wrong and a flat out invention.
I know facts rarely intrude into the mindset of someone who 'knows' they are right but I am going to call you out on this

      The question of Britain's membership of the E.U. is of great importance with a number of  various issues that need to be discussed before the referendum takes place. The E.U.budget and Britain's contribution is one of these issues . Unfortunately ,like many E.U. activities it is often a hazy subject.Whether the accounts have or have not been signed off seems to be dependent on the source of information.  What is certain is that a substantial amount of fraud
takes place something of the order of 5% of the budget. What voters need to ask themselves is do we get value for money from our substantial contribution?
     Other issues which need to be discussed are  our sovereignty, peace and security, trade and immigration. I suppose it is too much to expect that these can be discussed without acrimony .

Quote from: Ryehill on May 18, 2016, 06: PM
Whether the accounts have or have not been signed off seems to be dependent on the source of information.

Correct.
If you use reputable sources it is clear the claim (20 years of accounts 'refused') is a complete invention. A lie.
If however you are a reader of the right-wing press then you keep getting told the lie. If you are anti 'Yourope' then it is what you want to believe and (like you) any method will be used to try and hang on to the lie.
Anyone who says 20 years of accounts have been refused s either an idiot or a liar. Take your pick.

Quote from: Ryehill on May 18, 2016, 06: PM
What is certain is that a substantial amount of fraud

There is fraud everywhere. I believe a substantial number of UKIP MPs have been convicted of criminal offences and even as we speak one case is going through the courts. Indeed given the small number of UKIP MEPs the party is by far the most corrupt political Party in the UK. UKIP even gave disgraced MP Hamilton a job even though he was found  taking bungs from swarthy degos.
You claim fraud in the EU s 'substantial' but I bet you have no evidence other than the fact you believe it must be true.

Quote from: Ryehill on May 18, 2016, 06: PM
something of the order of 5% of the budget.

I saw Reckless on Newsnight  shouting over and over again 'we have been out-voted 75 times in Europe' but when he was asked how many times we 'won' the vote he claimed ignorance. Happily someone had the figures and it turns out 80%+ of the EU votes go our way. Reckless just huffed and said he' could not confirm that'.  Typical one-sded  rigging of the numbers in the hope people do not investigate further. It is a given no UKIP supporter will ever check!

Quote from: Ryehill on May 18, 2016, 06: PMI suppose it is too much to expect that these can be discussed without acrimony .

Or without idiotic childish claims the EU is the modern-day Third Reich?

Quote from: kipperdip on May 19, 2016, 05: PM


But when we consider that the strict definition of "signed off" means "free of materially significant errors in spending", we find that the ECA has repeatedly failed to "sign off" on the EU's accounts in that manner.  The ECA has found that 4.4% of EU spending in 2014 - or 6.27 billion euros - did not follow EU rules, which is above the 2% threshold at which such errors are deemed materially significant.

When the ECA and other EU bodies mention the EU's accounts as "signed off" they are using a deliberately deceptive definition of that phrase"

So you now admit your initial claim is a lie and you are now trying to re-define 'signed off' in a manner better suited to your obsession.
Thank you for confirming the claim ' for 20 consecutive years has been refused having it's accounts signed off by the ICA (International Court of Auditors) due to systemic and endemic fraud
is total fiction.

Quote from: kipperdip on May 19, 2016, 05: PM

This whole matter of the EU's financial probity was first brought to light by 'whistleblower' Marta Andreason who was then the EU's Chief Accountant who made the world aware of the fraud being carried out with taxpayers' money.  Marta, after a long drawn out process was sacked by Commissioner (at the time) Neil Kinnock.  Mrs Andreason's one time enthusiasm for the EU was demolished once she was made aware of "the nature of the beast".  For a while Marta was a UKIP MEP as many will recall.

It is Marta Andreasen not Marta Andreason.  Do you agree with her other claims:

Even if they(UKiP)  say they have changed the constitution to have less BNP [members], they actually are taking the ground of the BNP and they have many members who are coming from the BNP and the National Front."........................

If you saw the campaign in Eastleigh it was all about immigration and they lie, they produce data which is ridiculous, they say the whole population of Bulgaria and Romania is going to come to the UK."...................''Mr Farage surrounded himself with "an old boys club of like-minded sycophants"


Do you agree with Farage about  Marta Andreasen?

"The woman is impossible."....................didn't know what she was talking about".


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ex-mep-marta-andreasen-claims-ukip-peddles-lies-as-high-profile-tory-mp-priti-patels-father-8598205.html

Quote from: kipperdip on May 19, 2016, 05: PM
You may or may not wish to retract some of your earlier comments?  Or do you want to continue dancing on the head of a pin as to what constitutes FRAUD?

It is you who is doing the dancing. Your initial claim was false and you knew it was false.

Note the dodgy arithmetic:

Sept 2012 = 14 years

Nov 2013 = 19 years (an increase of 5 years over 1 year!

Oct 2014 = 19 years

April 2016 = 20 years

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/922/N9iFNk.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmN9iFNkj)


(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/922/DhBP49.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmDhBP49j)


(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/921/uWHmdQ.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pluWHmdQj)


(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/922/qASpm7.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmqASpm7j)

Eloquently put

Back in the day some voted for the common market....not a federal Europe capable of overruling the House of Lords. The party is over time to leave we are an island race not a suburb of Syria

In or out. Who is right?
When I see the ex Labour ministers and politicians stating it is best for us if we 'remain', I think of their judgement when they were in power.
I've lost track of the ex Labour ministers that have admitted they got this and that wrong whilst in power and that they made mistakes.

My fear regarding the EU is not the 'Black people/White people' rhetoric adopted by some on here.
It is with regard to obscene mountains of money wasted by the unelected, faceless bureaucrats in Brussels.
The constant move from Brussels to Strasbourg at a cost of millions is just a tiny indication of the vanity of these people.

Another aspect is their desire to be a federal state of Europe, complete with its own police force, army, navy and airforce.
The armed forces objective has already been stated as a given.
The police force is already in operation - Europol.

Despite already having 'Interpol', based in Lyon, France, which "enables police in 190 member countries to fight cyber-crime, organised crime and counter-terrorism", we now have Europol, which is the EU law enforcement agency - based in the Netherlands- to "Fight serious international crime & terrorism".

However, Europol officers do not have the power of arrest. They simply gather information and pass it on to Interpol!
In 2015, Europol cost 94 million Euros to run. Value for money?
Doing what Interpol officers are already doing?
Are they akin to our Police Community Support Officers?

As has been shown in the Ukraine, the EU is expansionist.
I have a fear that the requirement of a EU army, navy and airforce will lead to further conflict with Russia and, as Cameron predicted (only as a 'fear' to keep us within the EU), world war 3.
Time will tell.

Quote from: grim reaper on June 10, 2016, 11: AM


My fear regarding the EU is not the 'Black people/White people' rhetoric adopted by some on here.

Another aspect is their desire to be a federal state of Europe, complete with its own police force, army, navy and airforce.
The armed forces objective has already been stated as a given.
The police force is already in operation - Europol.

Complete fiction.

The usual made-up stories to hide the fact the real aim is to stop brown people entering the UK.

Quote from: grim reaper on June 10, 2016, 11: AM

I have a fear that the requirement of a EU army, navy and airforce

Still a lie no matter how many times you repeat it.

Quote from: grim reaper on June 10, 2016, 11: AM
will lead to further conflict with Russia and, as Cameron predicted (only as a 'fear' to keep us within the EU), world war 3.

Crazy talk.
If 'Europe' (code for 'End-Days' nutty US hawks) wants to avoid conflict with Russia a start would be to stop holding 'joint' exercises  near the Russian borders. Think Russian Troops on 'exercise' in Mexico.
One of the main 'Outy' reasons is that free of the  European common sense fear of a war The UK can assume a bigger World Role (translation: Invade more countries hanging on to US coat-tails) and throw our weight around more freely. Pathetic 'dick-waving Nationalism and harping back to the  glory days of gun-boat diplomacy so dear to the hearts of the little englanders.

MK1, What a nasty, racist piece of *hit you are. The all-knowing, all intelligent arbiter of knowledge. NOT!  :P
As far as I can see, it is ONLY you banging on about keeping 'brown' people out of the country.
Most people on here are trying to have a debate on the pros and cons of the EU. Something that was sold as a common market but has evolved into a cosy club for failed politicians (Kinnock et al) and other chancers.

If you removed your head from your *rse long enough you may have read that on March 8th EU President, Jean-Claude Juncker stated "the EU needed its own military in order to deal with the Russian threat, as well as to restore the Blocs standing around the world"!! (Welt am Sonntag).
The Chief EU spokesman, Margaritas Schinas,  responded to the comments by stating "Any EU army was still a long way off".
Angela Merkels CDU party has set out a detailed 10 point plan for closer military cooperation in Europe. It states it is 'urgent' to integrate EU armed forces.

A German defence white paper calling for the acceleration of the formation of a joint union army, which was to be held back until after the UK referendum, has been leaked to the Financial Times.

Who is to say these reports are right or wrong? It is way beyond my salary band but one thing I do know, I can debate with most on lots of subjects, welcoming others considered opinion without resorting to snide, smart *rse retorts.
I would hate to have a neighbour from hell like you!

Quote from: grim reaper on June 10, 2016, 01: PM
What a nasty, racist piece of *hit you are.

Is that a ghit......
an eghit......
or a whit ?(correct spelling 'wit'!)

Claim:

Quote from: grim reaper on June 10, 2016, 01: PM
I can debate with most on lots of subjects, welcoming others considered opinion without resorting to snide, smart *rse retorts.

Proof claim is  bollocks:

Quote from: grim reaper on June 10, 2016, 01: PM
MK1, What a nasty, racist piece of *hit you are................The all-knowing, all intelligent arbiter of knowledge..............If you removed your head from your *rse 

Quote from: grim reaper on June 10, 2016, 01: PM

Angela Merkels CDU party has set out a detailed 10 point plan for closer military cooperation in Europe. It states it is 'urgent' to integrate EU armed forces.

Britian has integrated its forces many times. Does so today in NATO.

In WW1 Britain integrated its navy with that of France by giving a cast iron guarantee it would stop and attacks on the French channel area. France took care of the Med. In WW2  The UK integrated with forces from Poland,Holland, Belgium Norway and France and had independent  Units from those nations inside its Army Navy and Air Force.
Also during WW2 The UK and USA were closely integrated.
In no case did this result in an integrated Army. The people making these claims are simply ignorant at best and (in your case) wilfully peddling what they know to be a lie.
I urge you to look up the number of different nationalities that served under Monty and 8th Army in Italy in 1943-44. I suspect you will be shocked.
Did you know there were Brazilian troops in Europe in WW2?

I look back to the early 70s, pre-EU and I recall a country ridden with strikes, a 3-day week and inflation running at 27%. Things were so much better then  ;)

Similar to teachers and "junior" kwaks in the modern day, nes pas, who should be studying learning and treating those who they purport to have the best interests at heart, (heart) how apt. Lets just hope nobody falls ill during the period of neglect.

Quote from: Heknocks68 on July 05, 2016, 06: PM
. Lets just hope nobody falls ill during the period of neglect.

A bit like like a Specialist  who leaves a queue of NHS patients  needing surgery behind as he uses 2-3 days  of his working week to  treat only those who can pay his fees.

As said, lets hope no one falls ill during period of neglect. Two wrongs dont make a right. Except in a certain MPs world, that is.