Have received the following e-mail and been asked to post it on the forum.
Dear Perseus
As an official of the UK Independence party in the North East who is in a Civil partnership, I have noted your insulting and incorrect accusations of "homophobia" which you attribute to UKIP's total membership.
Clearly you are badly informed, or just ignorant, but I can assure you that homophobia plays no part in the thinking of UKIP's membership.
UKIP members are united in pursuing a common set of objectives and are motivated by a common bond of patriotism and not divided by petty irrelevances such as sexual preferences, colour or religion.
I would therefore request you withdraw this accusational slur on my colleagues and friends whom I work alongside to further UKIP's objectives.
Is that clear enough for you perseus?
Gordon Parkin
This is David Riddle's reply to Eric Wilson who had queried the exclusion of UKIP from the English Martyrs 'Hustings'
Dear Mr Wilson
As you may be aware from comments that were brought to my attention on a local political forum, there was a 'hustings' style event held at our college last week, which UKIP were not invited to. This was an over sight on my part as I simply looked at the councils webpage and tried to ensure I gained representation for all the relevant political parties that make up the council in its current form.
Given that UKIP currently have no serving council members, this deviated my attention and I forgot that although this is the case now, you are submitting candidates on My 3rd.
Firstly, can I apologise for the over sight.
As for the event itself, I think one thing that became evident from the outset was that we were restricted in terms of time and there was insufficient time to take questions from the students.
Always keen to act of feedback, I am organising another event which will be held on Tuesday 12th June from 1pm-3pm. Essentially, the 2 hour slot will be very similar to Question Time. I intend to simply introduce the panel and immediately take questions from the floor (made up of our students). I will play the David Dimbleby role and attempt to keep you all in order!!
The questions submitted will be decided entirely by the students but you can anticipate them being on both local and national issues which are relevant to their age group.
The event itself is part of a 'Tolerance Week' where all of our students are off timetable and we have various organisations and speakers attending the college to promote the tolerance message. For example, HartGables the local LGBT group, Friends of Israel will be speaking followed by The Palestinian Solidarity campaign, somebody from MIND to champion the rights of the mentally ill and things of that nature.
As I consider your organisation to be politically active members of our towns community I am inviting you to the event to represent UKIP (If there are too many of you who want to come to make up the panel at the very least you can be part of the floor and submit questions).
I look forward to hearing from you if you would like to be involved in the event.
Kind Regards
David Riddle
I would say, quite categorically, that those accusing HTH of 'bias' can see from the above posts, that the site is open to all issues and points of view.
They are even willing to 'advertise' labour and tory voting propaganda (which neither have bother to take up). ::)
Yes, there are people using this site that can't abide the labour/tory amalgamation in this town but that isn't the fault of HTH and is not necessarily their view either!
This is one of the best run sites in the UK, in my view and well done the team.
No, I have nothing to do with the site personnel...to my knowledge I've never even met any of them. :-*
I think we'd find that there are people in all parties who have uttered homophobic nonsense at some stage while at the same time having gay members. This is not a result of policy but of the biggoted views of individuals and all parties have their fair share of those.
I don't know about the BNP because I pay little attention to them but all of the other parties can legitimately claim to have moved into the 21st Century on this issue.
I love the way some people will make comments about certain parties being this or that and then acting if butter wouldn't melt within their pary, however in the cold light of day this isn't really reality is it?
Lets start looking at each party - Labour, 'hail multiculturalism and we stand for the common man in the UK'. They introduced open door immigration to such a scale now our very own British are struggling to find employment. The big R word racism hmmm let me think Diane Abbott springs to mind. How could we not forget in Sunderland we had the IRA supporting Cllr and then the Cllr who was wanting HRH Prince Philip dead. Then we must not miss out the lovely RED KEN. Livingstone – who is running in this year's London Mayor electoral race – refused to apologise after claiming that the Conservative party was "riddled" with homosexuals. Ken's refusal to apologise for embracing a fascistic cleric who supports the "right" of Islamic theocracies to murder their gay citizens. Several more anti gay remarks later and we find ken having a pop at the Jewish community in London too.
I don't want to make the Tories upset by leaving them out either. Let me think, back in the 80's there was this party who came up with something called Section 28. Now who recalls this ? I recall it being very homophobic but lets not dwell on the past and bring things back up to date. Theresea May, lets look at her voting record:
She voted against the following
Repealing Section 28 ( sorry to drag that up but liek abad smell in a lift that won't go away easy)
Against lowering the age of consent in homosexual realtionships to 16 making it EQUAL
Against Gay adoption Rights
Against human fertility rights - which could give lesbian couples the ability to receive fertility treatment.
Then there were other comments from MP's re the B&B situation and the couple turned away.
Ah yes one must not forget that lovely party called the Lib Dems. Simon Hughes, Mark Oaten and now David Laws – who have gone to considerable lengths over the last decade to conceal their homosexuality, Hughes I do nopt have any sympathy for, given the homophobic flavour of his by-election campaign against Peter Tatchell. David Laws has insisted that, despite his free market views, he is not a Tory at heart. But if he had defected a few years ago, I think he could safely have come out by now. Doesn't say much for the Lib Dems now does it ?
Do I need to go on ? You get the picture all parties at some point have been /had homophobic tendencies. Re the comments on UKIP one can see that a few bad pennies are not the party as a whole. I do not truly support gay marriage myself, That doesn't make me homophobic in the slightest what I believe is that marriage is an out dated institution and when I look around my friends and family I see it fail far more that it succeeds, having said that I am very much in favour of people having the choice regardless to choose for themselves. Just because I do not like the idea doesn't mean it is wrong or right. I would like to point out that I have been with my male partner for the past 13yrs and we both support UKIP in fact my better half is the current Branch Chairman for the local Middlesbrough Branch.
I am an out gay man and I vote for UKIP because I believe in them, I have seen how the other 3 parties time and time and again have let down the good people of this country.
People are often very quick to say UKIP are just like the BNP well these people have obviously never looked into what UKIP are about or read the T&C's
Members shall be considered to be fully paid-up until the end of the month of expiry. Membership shall be considered to have lapsed if not renewed within a further two months.
The Party may refuse or rescind an application for membership if the National Executive Committee considers that the application does not fulfil the criteria for membership as set out in the Party Constitution.
The Party Secretary has the right to suspend or expel members who clearly bring the Party into disrepute by association with or membership of an organisation, membership of which the NEC has declared to be incompatible with membership of the Party.
Membership is not available to anyone who is or has previously been a member of the British National Party, National Front, British Freedom Party, British People's Party, English Defence League, Britain First or the UK First Party. Any applications made from people who are or have been members of these organisations will be refused, and any subscriptions collected will be refunded. By applying for membership you certify that you are not and have never been a member of any of these parties.
QuoteMembership is not available to anyone who is or has previously been a member of the British National Party, National Front, British Freedom Party, British People's Party, English Defence League, Britain First or the UK First Party. Any applications made from people who are or have been members of these organisations will be refused, and any subscriptions collected will be refunded.
Well I know of at least one UKIP candidate here in Hartlepool who was a founding member of the Hartlepool branch of the National Front. Can he have all of the subscriptions he's paid over the years refunded?
Shame really as he's probably one of the best guys you have.
Well if that is correct ( we only your word to go on ) feel free to provide your evidence of this to the party, then they can deal with it and hopefully get tot he bottom of this matter as people with those sort of views are not welcome within UKIP.
Head Office
PO Box 408
Newton Abbot
Devon
TQ12 9BG
FREEPHONE 0800 587 6 587
mail@ukip.org
LLTA - I agree with you fella. I like the man and as I said he's probably the best UKIP have.
Mike, it ain't my job to do that my friend, they are your rules. Not mine.
Incidently... Ever notice how many posts on twitter with eht #UKIP hash tag also have #BNP and #EDL in the same tweet?If you haven't anything to do with these organisations Mike, your party seriously needs to do more to give that impression.
I wasn't looking for him on google at all, I was actually in the middle of my tea and I have no idea who is he is. I am not familiar with every UKIP member. Now I do believe that everyone should have a second chance but if this person still has the same views then that is not the type of person UKIP really wants.
I know this thread is about UKIP, but why not start another thread, Perseus and give us your thoughts about the number of Labour politicians both local and national who were signed up Communists in their youth? Carl Richardson, for example, is reputed to have a picture of Stalin hung on his office wall at the Civic Centre; Stalin being the one responsible for killing millions of his own people though executions and starvation.
Labour has long been the traditional hiding place for communists and I suspect we have a few in the council chamber; there's certainly one or two who could pass for Russian shot-putters. ;)
That is a lot of hard work, perseus. It made thoughtful reading.
However, with regard to the LOCAL elections, I don't care about the national party, or parties. :-X
We are about to vote for the people we hope will consider Hartlepool FIRST in every decision, and not where they and their associates can, allegedly, procure jobs and council taxpayers cash.
If you think the local UKIP people are like some of the people you mention in your post...don't vote for them.
I'm a little tired of people focusing on the 'Lilley's' or the 'Allison's' with regard to Putting Hartlepool First. ::)
People's perception of them may be correct but Putting Hartlepool First is not just about those two families.
There are some strong characters in the 'ranks' of PHF and they will not be the pushover, some people appear to think.
Although Fred Corbett hasn't been on HTH during the last couple of weeks (to my knowledge), he is going to be a fighter for the people of his ward.
Likewise a number of others standing for PHF. If Lilley & Allison think they will have it all their own way...they are in for a shock. :o
That said, I may be making a big, big mistake by voting PHF.
In which case I will simply accept the blow and think at least I voted for a change in Hartlepool, even if it didn't come to fruition. (But it will :D).
The proof is in the pudding...speaking of which...must go, the oven's on!!
LlTa; I did respond this afternoon to your querying my Fred Corbett comment but for some reason it isn't on the board.
I've no idea if Fred is on here.
It appears you have him sussed but I don't recognise anything that 'gives him away'. Not that it would bother me either way. :-\
I like Fred from his snake pit encounters and 'Mail' letters, simple as that.
Once again, that is why I'm voting Putting Hartlepool First.
I'm not a candidate, nor am I related to any candidates but I would like to see some fresh blood (and fresh air) in the den of iniquity they call the council chamber. :(
If I have made a mistake I'll hold my hands up and say so..but I'm willing to give the new guys and gals a try. :-*
Quote from: perseus on May 02, 2012, 01: PM
I think intelligence wise we're in different divisions mr LLTA.
I pity people like you.
Going by your comments, I take it that you have a Master's degree in everything?
Who is Mike?
Quote from: perseus on May 03, 2012, 08: AM
.....(Persues glances at framed document on his office wall).
Judging by your answers and your choice of grammar it seems you are the one to be pitied, you are so far up yourself you will shortly be kissing your a***e thinking it's your face, it's because of people like you that a lot of other people have stopped using the site. P.S. I don't belong to a party, I am intelligent enough to make my own decisions.
Well said Steve, I too will refrain from posting on this section of the site
Quote from: gordontny on May 03, 2012, 01: PM
Well said Steve, I too will refrain from posting on this section of the site
Something of an odd thing to say on your first post, isn't it?
Quote from: stephen allison on May 03, 2012, 12: PM
Quote from: Micksmate on May 03, 2012, 11: AM
it's because of people like you {perseus} that a lot of other people have stopped using the site.
Couldn't agree more. This site started as a debating forum but soon became a platform for abuse and personal insults. So this is my first and last post on this forum as all it really is is a "bait and flame" site. The trolls dangle some bait, they get a nibble and then flame the responder. They don't really want any debate, they just want to throw insults about.
This forum is a facility provided by HTH. What people make of it is up to them.
It's aim is to encourage debate. If it shows that people are incapable of debate without quickly resorting to abuse then it could be argued that serves to help highlight why genuine debate in this country is rare.
Quote from: gordontny on May 03, 2012, 01: PM
Well said Steve, I too will refrain from posting on this section of the site
Hang on Mr Parkin..if you are UKIP which your twitter makes out then stand up for them and tell P where he is and how he is so wrong.
Quote from: perseus on May 03, 2012, 12: PM
you're the one who brought the issues of masters degrees into the conversation not me. Look, all I did was attempt to raise a DEBATE about U.K.I.P mainly via my long post. If you don't agree with my long post, then tell me WHY.
If you can justify a U.K.I.P member trying to win votes via implicit homopobia etc. then do so.
or reduce this debate to a slanging match.
Either way I don't mind.
This was what i had in mind. "I think intelligence wise we're in different divisions mr LLTA.
I pity people like you".
I take it that your framed document on "European Politics and Society" is a Master's. (says i having a sly look at the framed documents on my wall, including a citation from the Malaysian Gov.) Oops silly me fancy bringing "International politics" into a local political forum. Do me a favour, don't be a prick all your life, have at least one day off.
Quote from: stephen allison on May 03, 2012, 12: PM
Quote from: Micksmate on May 03, 2012, 11: AM
Couldn't agree more. This site started as a debating forum but soon became a platform for abuse and personal insults.
I thought you were the daddy at that!!
So this is my first and last post on this forum as all it really is is a "bait and flame" site.
Only if you struggle to answer direct questions and try and fill us full of s**t.
The trolls dangle some bait, they get a nibble and then flame the responder.
Like you have here Stephen, I would have thought your time would have been better spent knocking on doors today, saving your nonsense for the people who may or may not vote for you.
They don't really want any debate, they just want to throw insults about.
To have to any debate you have to answer direct questions and frankly that's not something you or your obbo like to do.
Also how comes your allowed multiple usernames.
Quote from: perseus on May 03, 2012, 01: PM
i'm pretty sure my long post about UKIP was a genuine attempt to facilitate debate.
It started off that way, a point of genuine interest. Sadly, you were like a man banging a drum to seek attention, the audience gathered ad listened and made to walk off thoughtfully, but you kept on banging the drum of attention and on and on and on and eventually the message was lost, drowned out by yourself. More is sometimes less.
After reading many of the comments, on U.K.I.P. I think it important to move away from individual, personalities as it always turns nasty and destructive. Many individuals as is their very nature will always move from one political party to another the reasons for the move is many and varied, in Steve Allisons case he was on the National Executive of U.K.I.P. he may have wanted to be leader of the party and when he could not get his way he turned and ran, the important point to mention here is instead of the whole thing turning nasty just ask him what you want to know ( if he is on this forum ) as far as U.K.I.P. is concerned he is no longer a part of U.K.I.P. If he so chooses to join another party well it`s his choice but the Hartlepool branch, probably don`t have an issue with that, they probably wish him well. Another important point is voters will benifit greatly from a party with a manifesto as it is a clear road map to their aim`s and objectives as a party. As an example take immigration the U.K.I.P. manifesto for 2011 states, they will stop all immigration for 5 years, after that time no immigrants entering the country will be able to apply for benifits until they have paid taxes for 5 years. this seems to me to be a sensible view on the subject.
Quote from: Riddler5 on May 04, 2012, 03: PM
Quote from: perseus on May 03, 2012, 01: PM
i'm pretty sure my long post about UKIP was a genuine attempt to facilitate debate.
It started off that way, a point of genuine interest. Sadly, you were like a man banging a drum to seek attention, the audience gathered ad listened and made to walk off thoughtfully, but you kept on banging the drum of attention and on and on and on and eventually the message was lost, drowned out by yourself. More is sometimes less.
Well said, I am also getting distinctly bored by this constant yapping on about UKIP - and no, I'm neither a UKIP member nor am I a supporter.
Well P you beat me to it, there are many more topics Lucy Lass enjoy.
Where did it all go wrong fella last night?
Well at least have a stab at it Perseus, remember though Politics is War without bloodshed, Labour won a battle in Hartlepool no more. this is why politics is so good.
If you think that it went wrong for U.K.I.P. last night then I suggest you have a careful look at the results of the Conservatives and the Lib Dems. Overall U.K.I.P. results were reasonably decent. The only winners last night were the Labour Party. Something which I predicted some weeks ago.
Ryehill
If I wanted to know (which I do) where it went wrong for the Tories I will email Ray Wells.
If I wanted (which I don't) to know where it went wrong for the Libs I would write to A.P.
What I was asking you was where do you think it went wrong for UKIP last night and it's a straight forward enough question in my humble view.
As for labour we all knew by how bad the other parties were that they would do well..
Labour were not good to win the rest were p**s poor and that is not the same thing.
Now where do you think it went wrong for UKIP last night?
As I said in my reply I think that U.K.I.P.'s results were reasonably decent. In every ward, bar Jesmond, the field was pretty crowded. Analysis of the figures show that in the 8 wards contested U.K.I.P. beat every Lib/Dem candidate ,except Edna Wright. With the exception of the Rural West ward U.K.I.P. did well against Conservative candidates and in that ward comprehensively defeated every other candidate. Finally U.K.I.P comfortably defeated the B.N.P. candidate in Manor House . I am not going to attempt to speculate the affect of the P.H.F. vote because their vote affected all parties .
Its just like a magic trick the only reason it works is because you cant see how its done,so what you see is Labour winning Hartlepool and they did but two other partys knew who would win, and who would lose out, and one was willing to loose a pawn (Hartlepool ) to gain a knight. and the other to see if the voters vote the way they have always done and they did. To see you need to look at the whole 180 councils who had elections that night, if you just look at Hartlepool you will miss the trick, some people look at a bigger picture.
Thank you, that better helps me understand how much more UKIP has to do to win anything anytime soon.
Hi Perseus, I never thought for a moment, you wanted to cause an argument and it was indeed a very good night, and thankful you looked outside of hartlepool, I stayed up all night to see it unfold i even took a days holiday today and it was all there on telly, one more question Perseus then all will be revealed. Which political party is the only one worth anything.
Quote from: perseus on May 04, 2012, 05: PMHow many bad apples would you like me to point out before it dawns on you its intrinsic to your ideology?
Ideology ....? You haven't the faintest idea what my ideology is. As for pointing out 'bad apples' .... life really is too short to embark on that particular voyage of discovery. Bon voyage.
Quote from: perseus on May 05, 2012, 05: AM
I clearly meant the parties ideology, UKIPs. Which is right wing populist.
It may have been clear to you. However, my ideology is based strictly on the principle that local government is no place for party politics and should be based on independent voting where all those elected have equal status and not the present 'Stepford Wives ' system of the parties. I despise them all.
Quote from: kipperdip on May 05, 2012, 06: AM
LLTA
Can I suggest that you don't appear so aggressive in your demands.
I ask a what seems a straight forward question and don't get a straight forward answer what's aggressive about that?
Politics is the art of the possible - it's not a science.
Maybe but I am not a politician I am a question asker..
Demanding to know "what went wrong for UKIP last night" for example is so simplistic as to be totally meaningless.
It wasn't a demand it was a straight forward question.
All UKIP could have done to win they did with the resources (manpower and finance) they had available. All anyone, or any party can do is their best.
Best..I don't believe that for one minute.
In fact, I'll send SteveL a copy of the precis of UKIP's results across the country to post up on here. Perhaps you might then conclude that it 'didn't go wrong'?
I am not asking where it went wrong throughout the UK, I am asking where it went wrong in Hartlepool.
In Hartlepool you have a situation where 70% of the electorate state with ignorant pride that they don't vote, this is then followed by the mantra - "you're all the same", "you're all out for yourselves" etc.
I'm sure you've become as bored with hearing these excuses for doing nothing as I have, but this is where we are.
What % of the 30% voted for UKIP..forget the 70% for now, as they didn't vote for UKIP or anyone else.
These are the facts of the case M'Lud and are indisputable.
Yes but what is the charge..
When you are trying to make people aware that there are alternatives but they categorically refuse to open their minds then there is the problem.
Then prehaps you need to join another group Dave and put your political skills and knowhow to better use. PHF might be a good place for you.
All anyone can do is keep trying.
Yes but the dead horse your flogging isn't going to win the Derby is it so join a new stable, I can see why S.A. left Hartlepool UKIP as he wants to be on a winning team..
Personally, I'll debate anything with anybody. But, I have precious little time for anyone who just snipes from the sidelines at other's efforts, does absolutely sweet FA themselves, but still feel as if they are somehow superior and can issue demands wrapped in sarcasm of those making an effort.
See the title of the thread, it was Ryehill not kipperdip, so prehaps it was aimed at him for good reason, so stop jumping out your pram just because your both UKIP
If you've got the solution put yourself up for election, then, when you don't get elected we can all ask you: "Where did it all go wrong"?
Actually this is the question on my mind..can I get with my anti social nature 900 votes, which is enough to beat Cath Hill next time round.
But even if I did this is the problem..what use would one Indy be to change things in this town for the better...N.F.U. what so ever sadly so why waste my time and have the drama in my life.
Now of course you with UKIP behind you got nowhere, your mates at UKIP got nowhere and even the one I thought had more than a good chance got nowhere so what does that tell you, the people in this town ain't having none of UKIP.
Tories got the Park but nothing else, so that speaks volumes.
Libs got jogged on.
PHF got one new kid on the block and added the three they already had..
Which brings us to Labour, which actually grew in % terms and no matter how much huffing and puffing we all have done, has not altered that one bit..
So prehaps I am left with 2 choices, keep throwing stones, or call it a day and spend my time more constructively.
Which bit of this question was aggressive
Where did it all go wrong fella last night?
Riddler, I hope it may be clear to you that party politics is and always will be in local government, how can it be any other way, in a democracy that is.
Perseus, a question if i may, if you had as you wish some good honest folk in charge of the cash what would you like to see Hartlepool turn into. I would be genuinely interested in your answer.
Riddler also a question if i may, i dont understand your reference to a stepford wife system, could you explain what that is, my question is why do you despise them all, ( i assume you mean all councillors ) again as a question to Perseus i would genuinely be interested in your reply.
Quote from: perseus on May 05, 2012, 09: AM
In the film the stepford wives all the women looked and behaved exactly the same, robotically, irrespective of their name.
Where can I buy one of those? ;)
They might be more trouble than they are worth Shadow.
Interestingly the BNP lost every council seat they were defending
Risk of electric shock?
Quote from: perseus on May 05, 2012, 08: AM
My answer to the question is that even in Hartlepool, a broadly white working class area, people just aren't into race* based politics. The world has moved on and thankfully even the politically comatosed population of Hartlepool know that. Either that or they too happy asleep in their coma to care.
Nationaly the BNP were down 2% and UKIP up 2%. Either way it looks like a few hundred thousand xenophobes just moved from one horse to another but still fell at the first fence.
*race based politics in that way too much of your core manifesto comes back to the colour of a human beings skin and/or the country said human being happened to be born in.
Perseus and Shadow, You are both absolutely right - the electorate do not like negative/hate induced politics - it turns them off. That is why most people don't vote as they don't want to have anything to do with it.
Also for those parties to now complain (Like Kipperdip is trying to do) that people think "politicians are all the same" when those same parties have spent the last 50 years telling them that, is a bit rich.
Positive campaigning is what gets people elected.
Quote from: perseus on May 05, 2012, 07: AM
That much I agree sir. Hartlepool can only change if we get people with brains and morals in charge of our towns money. Some of the current lot in my opinion lack one or the other. Some lack both. I shall be observing the PHF situation with interest.
I think you have missed the whole point that has been made, whilst you are happy to blame ALL Councillors - which would include the continuing PHF Councillors, it is in fact the MAYOR and CABINET that have been deciding how money has been spent in the main.
So why attack, as many have, the decision this year, that Councillors collectively made it clear, that the money tree has shed its last leaf. They for the first time, challenged the MAYORS BUDGET, reset it a bit, and locked the money out of his grasp.
Decisions will be made by Councillors collectively not just those who get the tap on the shoulder from Stuart Drummond.
A bit like a certain H and H campaign??
I have sent 2 replies to Perseus, on this topic, dont know where they have gone anyone seen them.
Perseus, I thank you for your answer, and while i have not laid any bear traps for you, can we say, a little understanding along a road of some common ground, for me to answer you it will be nessasary to go to basics, there are only 2 political party`s that can possibly exist in this country, as surely as night follows day this is so. I believe all those who run for local government are intelligent and wanting to do their best for the town, likewise those that go and vote for them. I empathise with those who have suffered misfortune in their life, but dont feel this misfortune holds them back in any way, at this point it is fair to point you to the stage hypnotist and a question which is quite difficult to answer but never the less relavant doe`s the hypnotist, hypnotise his subject Yes or No. To continue on the common ground, I like some of Labour`s policy, as I like some of the Tory`s, and should you have a look at U.K.I.P.s 2011 manifesto you may discover it answers your question as to those who have suffered and how to stop life holding them back, or to stop suffering. U.K.I.P. as a party has one unique thing about it in that it has not been in government, political party`s are not what they seem.
Quote from: beanzontoast on May 05, 2012, 08: AM
Riddler, I hope it may be clear to you that party politics is and always will be in local government, how can it be any other way, in a democracy that is.
I would like to see party politics excluded from local government for the glaringly obvious reason that their loyalties are generally to their party and the electorate come a very poor second. It's not democracy by any stretch of the imagination and can simply be achieved by excluding people who are members of any national political party.
I may not be able to achieve that, but I can still apply my expectations to the actions of people who's first loyalty is to a partyand not me and my fellow citizens.
Quote from: perseus on May 05, 2012, 07: AM
That much I agree sir. Hartlepool can only change if we get people with brains and morals in charge of our towns money. Some of the current lot in my opinion lack one or the other. Some lack both. I shall be observing the PHF situation with interest.
Then we are coming together in our expectations of those we elect.
Quote from: beanzontoast on May 05, 2012, 08: AM
Riddler also a question if i may, i dont understand your reference to a stepford wife system, could you explain what that is, my question is why do you despise them all, ( i assume you mean all councillors ) again as a question to Perseus i would genuinely be interested in your reply.
I despise ALL national political parties operating at local government level, where local issues have to go through a party filter to ensure party interests always come first.
I don't know where you all get your facts from, you must all be Sun readers.
Whilst there is clearly an agreed position on national issues, those who are local representatives of an established Party such as Labour, Lib Dem, Conservatives, UKIP etc. DO NOT consult with regional or national office before campaigning on local issues or voting in local councils.
To be fair, national parties have little if any interest in how often bins are emptied, dog sh**t is cleaned up, etc. etc. Local issues are cebated and determined locally, you really should stop making it up as you go along.
Perseus, We do and will always share this common ground, P.H.F. did indeed do very well with the votes on the night, they i think won one ward, in Hartlepool, there were 180 councils on the same night, all voting and on Telivision, P.H.F. were not metioned once, this tells you something does it not, its a big world out there, but allow me to make it smaller. I have had the privelage of working with Mr Lilley and in the end he saved my life, for me he is a big friendly giant, he has been of late not very friendly, i say this because i did talk to him recently, for the first time in 30 years, he does look older, but still the same friendly giant, talk to him it will be ok, mr. Allison only met him twice, same good guy, but speak to Lilley first.
Quote from: Straight Talking on May 05, 2012, 05: PM
I don't know where you all get your facts from, you must all be Sun readers.
Whilst there is clearly an agreed position on national issues, those who are local representatives of an established Party such as Labour, Lib Dem, Conservatives, UKIP etc. DO NOT consult with regional or national office before campaigning on local issues or voting in local councils.
To be fair, national parties have little if any interest in how often bins are emptied, dog sh**t is cleaned up, etc. etc. Local issues are cebated and determined locally, you really should stop making it up as you go along.
But that's the point really, isn't it - neither have you.
How many 'motions' have you put together to send to Downing street now? What was the last one "Dear David, please stop being so cruel to us" - or something similar.
No problem wasting time sending letters to Downing Street - hell of a problem sending letters to the Hospital Trust though.
Quote from: steveL on May 05, 2012, 07: PM
Quote from: Straight Talking on May 05, 2012, 05: PM
I don't know where you all get your facts from, you must all be Sun readers.
Whilst there is clearly an agreed position on national issues, those who are local representatives of an established Party such as Labour, Lib Dem, Conservatives, UKIP etc. DO NOT consult with regional or national office before campaigning on local issues or voting in local councils.
To be fair, national parties have little if any interest in how often bins are emptied, dog sh**t is cleaned up, etc. etc. Local issues are cebated and determined locally, you really should stop making it up as you go along.
Again you assume who I am, for your information I regularly lobby my MP, MEP and sign e-petitions on the Government website. On occasion I have been known to write to ministers. Ultimately we all do what we can in our own way. How many laws have you had changed? How many people have you supported? When did you last make a difference to anyone other than yourself?
But that's the point really, isn't it - neither have you.
How many 'motions' have you put together to send to Downing street now? What was the last one "Dear David, please stop being so cruel to us" - or something similar.
No problem wasting time sending letters to Downing Street - hell of a problem sending letters to the Hospital Trust though.
Ooooooo, perseus, you are awful.........but I like you :-*
Although PHF are big enough to stand up for themselves, I must take a stand against your disingenuous comment on 'anyone they could cobble together'. ???
If you read the earlier posts on here, appertaining to the meeting in the Grand Hotel etc. you would see that people with the best interests of Hartlepool turned up to the public meeting and offered their services.
No-one was 'cobbled together'. Genuine Hartlepool residents asked of PHF, 'What can we do for the town'? :'(
You see, people have only known self service and duplicity in this town for so long, they wouldn't know if genuine people came along and bit them on the butt!!!
The tide is changing.......................
'You'll also need help'...as I have said before, I'm not a PHF candidate. Simply a great believer in the requirement for change in this town.
'They' may need help from 'rivals'..I agree to a point.
However, as long as PHF stay true to their manifesto --PUTTING HARTLEPOOL FIRST-
I believe the decent people of this town will eventually turn their backs on the crowd they THOUGHT were for the working class, see them for what they really are and tick 'PUTTING HARTLEPOOL FIRST'.
Simplistic attitude? Maybe I have.
I also believe most people in Hartlepool have.
We are just working class people that want to provide for our families and pay our way.
All we can see is our money being squandered on grandiose ego trips and people that believe working for a living entails going (via taxi) to the dole office to sign on, every month or so.
And if that offends those people out of a job through no fault of their own, or those that are fighting hard to obtain employment, I apologise.
But everyone on here knows the people I really mean;
never worked, never wanted to work and never will work.
Hi Julie Noted, H.P.F. dont have a manifesto, they are not a popular national party, they are a small group of people, who cannot, do anything, your council ( Hartlepool ) has a budget of £hundreds of thousands of pounds, do you think they will give this money over to P.H.F. not likely they may be good people i know 2 and they are good people, but National party`s rule OK.
Quote from: perseus on May 05, 2012, 07: PM
Sorry missed that spat while i was typing the other. ST, if what you say is true explain the ICT contract situation and the 6 sacked. was that about dog s**t or privatisation?
If you care to check the public record, minutes are on the website.
You will find that the ICT contract was not up for renewal until the autumn of 2013. However the MAYOR aided and abetted by PAUL WALKER (could have been the other way round) decided to go for an early re-letting of the contract. They also decided that it might be a good idea to role in some other services such as Revenues and Benefits. This would make it difficult for a local contractor to win it and would probably give an opening for one of the big nationals. (Maybe they have family or friends with shares - who knows)
Despite numerous objections from ordinary council members and I believe some senior officers, the two continued to push onwards.
Then just for good measure we had the opportunity for both of them to scratch each others backs, £10k pay off for Paul Walker and a payrise for Drummond. Despite objections, Paul Walker got his, enhanced his pension and got out fast, leaving poor Drummond behind to continue the work alone and without his promised payrise . POOR STUART!!
So how could he get a huge buy out clause through council - should he take it to a Council meeting in October/November/December/January as part of the Acting Chief's Report or was there another way. Ah yes he shouted Eureka, lets put it into the Budget that will make it more difficult to identify and even harder to remove.
So the scene was set for the battle of wills that we all witnessed.
So no, it was not about dog sh**t it was most definitely about privatisation of a critical service for many residents both young and old. The only way to make money out of a benefit contract is to provide a service where people can't get what they are entitled to, or to delay them from getting it for as long as possible.
Lets just see, what the savings are when the ICT contract is re-let and lets also wait and see how important the Revenue and Benefit function at HBC is in managing the needs of residents.
All should be revealed over the next 6 - 8 months.
Quote from: beanzontoast on May 05, 2012, 08: PM
Hi Julie Noted, H.P.F. dont have a manifesto, they are not a popular national party, they are a small group of people, who cannot, do anything, your council ( Hartlepool ) has a budget of £hundreds of thousands of pounds, do you think they will give this money over to P.H.F. not likely they may be good people i know 2 and they are good people, but National party`s rule OK.
Having a national manifesto is one of the reasons the town is in the S***, & having members of a National Party running the show has given us the 4th highest council tax in the country, poverty in the lower percentile, no bus service, & very soon "No Hospital"
The council budget is £125 million & PHF don`t want the money, they just want the money to be spent wisely, not on a £4 million pound white elephant bus stop & carpark or a bloody good weekend that ran a couple of million pounds over budget.
Quote from: perseus on May 05, 2012, 05: PM
I think what's frustrating regarding the common ground that we do appear to share is the PHF situation. I think it's stunning that they pulled in over 9,000 votes in next to no time. To be just a couple of hundred votes behind labour per ward is a real achievement. Mainly because the 19 or so people they put forward were in the main basically anyone they could cobble together. no offence to anyone who stood under the PHF colours.
I think also a lot of people who may want to get involved are maybe a bit reluctant to do so due to the personalities of the leadership. Geoff appears very un approachable from what people on here are saying.
Also Stephen appears about as electable as Moss B even to people in his own back yard. PHF have the makings of a brand that I think a lot of people in the town could buy into, but I'm not sure enough people will see it as a goer with some of the current personel.
Steve doesn't seem very receptive with regard to advice.
Do you know P that's one of the other reasons why it doesn't bother me you saying about how much brighter you are than me, as now and again you come up with a post where I think this guy is switched right on.
The other reason is at some point you will eat them words.. ;)..
Perseus, i dont know who you are, but speak to the big friendly giant, all will be well.
Let me say first, I could have been every bit as bright as you, if I had used Wikipedia in the same way you have/do and continue to do.
OK..fair enough..hand shake completed. :)
Quote from: beanzontoast on May 05, 2012, 09: PM
Perseus, i dont know who you are, but speak to the big friendly giant, all will be well.
No he a tempermental old man, who is bitter and twisted that sometimes life doesn't go the way he want it to.
And the rest of the time his a big friendly giant.
He wasn't to friendly the other night calling me an a*r**o** and telling his wife not to talk to me..not the it bothered me any, as it amused me at the time and all because I don't fall into his way of thinking often.
What I do have to say is that I enjoyed the chat with his wife and found her to be a warm kind of person, she did two things that impressed me, one she answered the question I have asked for two years about why she abstained, even though she didn't have to..and the other time was, when the big, friendly, giant was growling a bit about her talking to me she stood firm with him and he walked away told. Then she told me too...lol
Help.....I've just sent a post and it's disappeared!
No the wonder I have crippled and calloused fingers.
Any chance of a claim against HTH for RSI?
Hmmm, thought not.
Perseus. its simple really, you dont need U.K.I.P. to step away, you need to vote for them.
Quote from: perseus on May 05, 2012, 09: PM
Also, moving forward I don't think i'm alone in wishing fred c had taken a scalp at foggy. To realistically do that we'd need UKIP to step aside and rally all their troups behind fred. Possibly also the same from the libs. That would give fred a chance of a major scalp. How likely is that from arthur and ukips decision maker?
Do you think that had they made some friends along the way, do as Labour do and strike some deals, maybe it might have helped?
BOT; I'm on my 2nd bottle of WKD...what are you on tonight? ???
PHF doesn't claim to be, or have, a 'national ' party and that's why I like them. They are going to be working.....FOR THE TOWN, NOT A NATIONAL PARTY. :P
As for your comment about them being a 'small group of people'.
Jeez, if PHF is classed as 'small' with over 9,000 votes (after only 6 months in existence), what do you class the tories that had only 5,000 votes? 8)
Excuse me, my 3rd bottle of WKD awaits me. :P :P 8)
I see it like this with PHF, they rushed in far to quick at the end, instead of having a good run at it months before.
At present they might have 100 moving parts to their engine but Labour have thousands of moving parts to theirs, so the answer has to be to break everything down they are trying to do, look at each part more carefully to be able to improve every tiny bit in detail.
They know this and will be the first to tell you they know this but..
How many of the councillors that blew out are still going to be around?
I guess the old soldier will, Stevel, Fred, S.A. but how many more.
That is a very good point, LlTa.
I suppose you can only say, if they drop out now, they can't have been very keen in the first place.
Although, that said, I can understand the disappointment they must feel. :'(
I couldn't do it, that's for sure. :-X
I cling to the hope that this party (PHF) will be the party to rid Hartlepool of its malaise and alleged cronyism.
If it doesn't/can't, I hope to God another party can rise and, finally rid us of what has held the town back all these years.
Do I see a 4th bottle of WKD? Well, it is Saturday night! 8)
They will be deflated, they should have a period of time to get that out of their system and start planning ahead now.
Take my ward, the two of the PHF cnadidates most likely got 500 votes between, Cath Hill the weak link now got just under 800 I think, so now is the time to look at everything Cath Hill is doing in detail and seeing what you can pull her apart for reasonably, or what she is doing well and working out what you can do better, Waiting two years and sticking leaflet out isn't the way, you need to know how she votes on every issue and report it, each PHF candidate needs their own website reporting these people fairly to the general public as well as the PHF site or of course as part of the PHF site.
That's only one tiny peice but it would still need time and effort to do that with one but you have to do it will all of them.
19 candidates, a few family and friends won't do it.
You need numbers, you need numbers broken into groups, each responsible for a smaller team, taking on one factor of it each.
What are they going to do about getting the numbers?.
Julie N, What has kept Hartlepool back all these years, back from where, what would you all in hartlepool wish to see, many are whingers. you might not like this. but before you were born, did you know there were 140 shipping magnates in Hartlepool, full employment, `` no workers now just whingers.
Well I would be both..worker and whinger!!
I whinge, as I want to see change and I don't see where it is going to come from.
Quote from: perseus on May 05, 2012, 10: PM
Absolutely LLTA. Look at the situation. Imagine in national PR the cons would get if in 2years time they helped PHF take out a council that Labour have held for half a century or whatever. Lets me honest, nowhere except rural west is likely to go tory anytime soon round here. By 'help' i mean not field candidates in key wards and direct blues to PHF. also, edna will be mid 70s or so next time. How about a parting gift to the town and a retirement but with a parting gift of 350 odd votes to PHF and a scalp on de bruce?
How much harm did PHF do to themselves putting out nonsense about Ray Wells in the Park ward..really did a good job lads.. ::) Mr Wells was 2nd highest voted councillor and George Morris is it ? got well over a thousand so what was the point, a complete own goal with the benefit of hindsight of course.
So don't do it again as it doesn't make sense.
Ray Well has this to worry about in 4 years time..if PHF get it right between now and the next election against the weakest voted councillors, then if they did very well the Park would not be such a mountain to climb.
Ray Wells is better to play ball with an organised PHF, than think it doesn't matter in my view, as when it doesn't matter s**t happens.
Quote from: perseus on May 05, 2012, 10: PM
S.A piping up soon i reckon.
His input about his party would be good to have, as no one knows it better than him..
Well actually anyone who has ever built a decent size business up, can see where he is at with it, I would have thought.
Looks like tory and perseus, how about do you believe there is a God, 140 mega rich people made hartlepool what it is, it might not of been perfect, but from them its gone downhill, they left it, you made it s**t. Ask at the museum for the glass plates. Any way this is a thread for U.K.I.P.
Quote from: beanzontoast on May 05, 2012, 11: PM
Looks like tory and perseus, how about do you believe there is a God, 140 mega rich people made hartlepool what it is, it might not of been perfect, but from them its gone downhill, they left it, you made it s**t. Ask at the museum for the glass plates. Any way this is a thread for U.K.I.P.
I am pretty good when it comes to Hartlepool history and I don't need to Google, as it has always interested me.
The period that interest me most is the period from about 1800-1950/60
Even the funny stuff like when R.W.J. bricked up Christchurch doorways halfway, before there was riotous behaviour, because Burgess wouldn't lets kids from all over the town go to the schoool there.
Your on a topic I enjoy, so lets talk back in time about them all you like.. but it does f*c* all at the ballot box.
Was Christchurch not £8,400 of which R.W.J. stumped up 8k and 400 quid was public donations/subscription.
The stone came out of his dock, that's why when you look at it, it's all over the place really.
The drawing for the first steple was going to be much higher but so was the cost, so it was redrawn for the smaller steple.
Come on I love history..
I like why the house oppersite the gates at Ward Jackson has that bit at the top of it..
Anyone know why...
Will you all stop it, the past was the past, it was bad for workers at that time, Hartlepool was a sea port and had pressgangs, if you go to Durham cathedral, you would have sanctuary, I was not there, we now have indoor toilets and welfare is a career choice, i dont have an issue with this, i just state Hartlepool has a history, my question to you is has it got better.. I know the answer, you cant tell me what you want, thank god for bricks at least they leave a legasy, i refer to the buildings in west park, as apossed to the monstrosity of the town hall. Keep the red flag flying here.
And from what i have seen from the Elections, the red flag will be here for a long time, come on admit it, you did hang a monkey, dont feel sad, he jumped out of his suit many years later, he is now the Mayor, sins forgiven ahmen.
Come on you can do better than that!! ;D
Looks LIke,
Of course i can do better than that, But you need to do better than that, but you have all voted, and you have voted for the same, as same as, so you will have more taxes, more imigration, more taxes, ad infinitum ( thats latin ) means i will have long gone.
For Labour it was expected, mid term elections always prove this. The fact the Tories and Lib Dems have just raised the tax level to £9000 makes no difference to the 30% of voters. When Miliband takes power in 3 years the landscape will change again and the local majority will be eroded. It is very clear that the public want to be in EU so UKIP might as well disband now along with the BNP.
Do the public in general want to be in the EU?
I think you have long gone mate.
They must, UKIP have made no impact in 10-15 years.
I could be in a different country right now, wrote a book on how to win an election, made millions, you may be in Hartlepool, fretting over Ray Wells, I might even be eating a Pasty, one thing is for sure you may still be looking for the next monkey to hang,Whoops you may already have it in your sights.
Quote from: beanzontoast on May 06, 2012, 01: AM
I could be in a different country right now,
NO..
wrote a book on how to win an election,
No..
made millions,
No..far from it.
you may be in Hartlepool,
No
fretting over Ray Wells,
No why he has the Park ward sown up.
I might even be eating a Pasty,
You might be drinking!!
one thing is for sure you may still be looking for the next monkey to hang,
No..I wasn't born in Hartlepool so that chucks the monkey hanging theory out the window.
Whoops you may already have it in your sights.
Never gave it any thought.
Next..
Clever, looks like a Tory, but icould be hours behind you of or i could be hours or days in front, either way you will still wonder. again if i may, this portal is for, U,K,I,P. Love to talk to you, but if you are in Hartlepool, You have already voted the train has moved on, the whinging station, is where you are.
O hadn't looked at it like that.. :-\
Quote from: beanzontoast on May 06, 2012, 02: AM
Clever, looks like a Tory, but icould be hours behind you of or i could be hours or days in front, either way you will still wonder.
No I couldn't care less, or in your case, couldn't give a monkeys. :)
again if i may, this portal is for, U,K,I,P. Love to talk to you, but if you are in Hartlepool, You have already voted the train has moved on, the whinging station, is where you are.
That's nice so what is the next station like then??
and what difference have they made your 13 MEP's Kipperdip.
BIG FAT NONE
If I remember rightly KD the petition that triggered a debate in the HoC asked specifically for am IN - OUT referendum.
When you look at public opinion polls the EU often comes way down the list when it comes to public concerns (the last one I read put it 9th on the top priorities) and when polls are carried out with a 3 way outcome IN - OUT - RENEGOTIATE TERMS the latter is always the option favoured.
So whilst I may wish for a withdrawal from the EU, the majority of the public would prefer to renegotiate membership which is why Cameron instructed his MPs to vote against having an IN - OUT referendum
Testicles, read the Conservative Home website and you might change your mind about the impact U.K.I.P. is having.
For Info: UKIP Election newsletter currently being sent out.
• In 2008 (the comparable point in the electoral cycle), UKIP took 98,000 votes in England. In 2012 we took over 220,000 – our vote has more than doubled since 2008.
• UKIP fielded 691 candidates this year, up from 450 in 2008.
• The average UKIP candidate had a percentage vote share of 13.8% - our highest ever.
• UKIP won 7 seats in England and 2 in Wales.
• Lisa Duffy took 61% of the vote to win the final seat in Ramsey by a landslide.
• In Rushmoor, two UKIP councillors who had joined from the Conservatives and a third UKIP councillor was also elected to complete a clean sweep in that ward.
• Piers Wauchope was elected to Tunbridge Wells council, unseating the Leader of the Council in the process.
• UKIP took its first ever councillor (above parish/town council level) in the Yorkshire & North Lincolnshire region when Ron Shepherd was elected to NE Lincolnshire Council.
• Other UKIP councillors elected were in Thurrock, Merthyr and Vale of Glamorgan.
• In Plymouth, UKIP averaged 20.6% of the vote.
• In Sheffield, UKIP achieved a first in a major UK city by taking almost 3,000 more votes than the Conservatives across the city.
• The UKIP vote seemed relatively consistent throughout the country.
• Across the country, 136 candidates finished in second place. 40 of these were in Yorkshire & North Lincolnshire alone.
• 50 candidates took more than 25% of the vote and 105 took more than 20%.
• Our vote was spread evenly throughout the country – with regions varying from a 10.5% average to 16.9%.
• UKIP took 15.3% in Conservative wards, 13.2% in Labour wards and 10.7% in Liberal Democrat wards.
• Churchill ward of Adur Council saw a UKIP candidate lose by just 1 vote.
• Young Independence's target ward of Gorleston in Great Yarmouth saw Matthew Smith take 34.7% of the vote and miss election by just 48 votes.
• UKIP's vote averaged 20.2% where there were just 3 candidates on the ballot paper – usually but not exclusively UKIP v Labour v Conservatives. But when 7 or more candidates were standing, the average dropped to 5.9%.
• UKIP performed better than ever before in the Metropolitan Borough Councils, averaging 11.9% where we stood on those Councils.
• More than two thirds of all UKIP candidates took more than 10% of the vote.
Congratulations to all of our elected candidates and thank you to all of the activists who worked so hard in this campaign. Thanks also to all those who assisted me in the statistical reporting of results, and enabled us to keep up with the media. It was refreshing to note that for once, the BBC were using our statistics rather than just the other way around!
Best wishes,
Jonathan Arnott (UKIP General Secretary)
BOT; Held us back from where we ought to be.
Tens of millions of pounds have been spent (wasted) in this town, over the years. :'(
Highway design and later re-design (Burn Rd. for one, Easington Rd. ped. x-ing for another).
Buying buildings that nobody else in business wants.
Giving away public buildings at knock down prices.
The tall stories financial debacle.
The chief execs pay & pension rise...even though he was already leaving the authority.
Paying a senior manager a massive pay rise to cover chief execs post...even though we have a deputy chief exec.
Paying £1/2 million pounds to keep Able out of Greythorp..now a thriving business. Paying senior managers a salary almost on par with the Prime Minister and in a couple of cases..more than! :o
The list just goes on and on.
'Whinging'? No, stating the obvious and we have a right to highlight what goes on in our name.
Full employment? We can NEVER have full employment ever again in this country.
As I posted previously, technology and mechanisation between them have slashed employment figures.
What would have helped keep more people in employment in this country is if immigration was kept to a sensible level.
Because of labour's 'open door' policy, we have to fight for jobs, places at the dentists & doctors and hospital appts. take an age (more so in the midlands & down south). :(
I don't have the answer to the problems nationally...the horse has already bolted. However, the people of this small town do have the power to improve our lot.
That process started with 9,200 votes for Putting Hartlepool First! 8)
KD, please calm down my friend and do not turn this into a personal attack on one and other.
I'd have hoped you read my last post in full as yet again I declared that I too would prefer a withdrawal from the EU, however I have to accept that I may not be joined in my view by the majority of the British public.
Please find the poll I refered to below.
(http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/full/567058496.png?key=307339&Expires=1336306838&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIYVGSUJFNRFZBBTA&Signature=hGw7B9XaACLLcPZErXAINCpTQTl~VstqpnY~T0MC2Gx59wv5IVh0PK9kpY9kqJMKGWdAK0r925nozNu-APeUHe2P0sX0z0SFj7w3jx374htJg2MfYXBTBJt1-mf7RVrTj2Lufl-QBr7dZWjVN5Ogk3epFspAKUm64mvGJvHMuYY_)
I agree with much of that Fred
One of U.K.I.P.'s problems is getting their core message out to the general public, partly because of the media's reluctance to mention U.K.I.P., a situation which is gradually being reversed, and partly because of lack of finance. The Conservatives have their rich backers , the Labour Party the unions and the Lib/Dems had Michael Brown.
U.K.I.P. was formed as a result of the Maastricht Treaty, which changed the E.E.C. from a trading organisation into a political union. U.K.I.P. want to leave the E.U., which is obviously bad for Britain and return to an E.E.C. type of arrangement.
U.K.I.P. have a slogan 'We love Europe but hate the E.U.' I suppose Perseus will see that as xenophobic and racist.
I haven't responded to Perseus' long condemnation of U.K.I.P. but for a person who claims to have a degree, his source material leaves a lot to be desired. Hearsay, second hand reports and Wikepedia do not constitute good research.
Political parties attract some strange people and no party is immune to that but I am not going to list all the unusual characters, local and national ,past and present, who have made politics such a murky business.
The vast majority of U.K.I.P. supporters are ordinary people who feel let down by the political class and are worried about the direction in which this country is going. You might not agree with them Perseus but at least you might try to understand their viwepoint. If you can't then it leaves a big question mark against your tolerance level.
"P" there is more to it with you and UKIP what is it?
Fair enough..who did you vote for last week?
Who?
That wasn't what I asked matey..
Come on spill the beans
Perseus, you are nothing but a verbal bully. You can't discuss or debate in a rational way. You remind me of the man who would go into a pub or club, wild eyed and frothing at the mouth. Anyone who happened to catch his eye received a mouthful of verbal abuse and threats of violence. Whenever he entered a bar, the room rapidly emptied . Very soon he was barred from every licensed premises in the town. If you can't or don't want debate rationally you will soon be arguing with yourself.
Quote from: LookslikeTORYagain on May 06, 2012, 11: AM
I agree with much of that Fred
Thank goodness another Fred has turned up on here........ i was starting to get paranoid... lol
Quote from: perseus on May 06, 2012, 02: PM
To me, you sound like an old racist who doesnt even know he is racist. Your party have no place in 2012. If you want a debate sir, come back at the long post You won't of course, because you can't.
By the sound of your posts you seem to think that anyone who wants to remain British is some sort of racist or xenophobic, so for everyone's benefit perhaps you could give us your words of wisdom on the following that a lot of people are worried about.
1. The illegal immigrants
2. Bogus asylum seekers
3. Foreign criminals and terrorists being given safe refuge in this country
4. Sex slaves
5. Worker exploitation by gang masters.
6. Parts of towns and cities being no go areas.
7. Why asylum seekers cross half of the free world to claim asylum here.
Quote from: perseus on May 06, 2012, 05: PM
I COULD yes, very easily. However, I don't see why I SHOULD when the whole lot of you are claiming you want a debate but have continually avoided directly discussing the serious issues raised in my long post.
So you seem to think that the questions I posed are not serious issues and that what party someone was in before moving to UKIP is a much more serious issue. Strange person
You appear in 2012 to be scared of other human beings based on the location of the area of the planet their mothers were situated when they gave birth to them. That's very worrying gentleman.
As for the other bit, when foreign criminals and terrorists are given sanctuary in this country, you can take it to the bank I am scared and worried what the future holds for my grandchildren in this country.
Perseus I see that you are not adverse to a bit of ageism. Not a nice trend
Quote from: perseus on May 06, 2012, 06: PM
Who exactly is it's that's worrying you micksmate? Is it the doctors in our towns surgeries and hospital that are mostly asian in ethnic origin thats freaking you out? Is it the Polish lad who'll first fix your bathroom for half the money it used to cost (and he'll turn up on time)? Maybe it's that Romanian woman who plays the accordian at the bottom of the ramp near the library? Maybe inside her squeeze box is some semtex? Aaahh maybe it's the economy you're worried about? Maybe the fact the Romanian woman is basically playing music for pocket change in between the 99p store and cash for gold thats got you worrying about your grandkids? I hardly think she's a serious threat to wider economy of Hartlepool.
Oh dear, what part of the words "when foreign criminals and terrorists are given sanctuary in this country" don't you understand, perhaps it's time you came out of your little ivory tower and had a look at the real world.
I don't think the racist charge over immigration really stands up anymore. What has often struck me is the number of British citizens of ethnic origin and those more recently naturalised British citizens who are themselves concerned over the level of immigration.
In the latter case, they often point out that they don't like to see what they thought was the attraction of coming to Britain in the first place being diluted by an unsustainable influx of immigrants. In other words, they don't like to see the Britain they found so attactive in the first place becoming less like itself.
Quote from: kipperdip on May 06, 2012, 06: PM
Perseus,
Regarding your smarta**e comments about smart phones.....................
I suggest you show HTH readers the courtesy of writing in the Queen's English, using correct grammar, proper use of sentence construction, appropriate use of capitals, and use of paragraph's, instead of your rambling, iliterate, ageist innuendo.
Oi where does that leave me my grammar is s**t but my brain works just fine.
Quote from: perseus on May 06, 2012, 06: PM
14 pages long, nearly a couple of thousand views, yet still no answer to my main post. Quick to point of ageism from me, yet in total denial about obvious examples of homphobia, sexism, racism etc from high ranking members of your party. Now your playing the even immigrants dont like immigrants card. Priceless.
Oh dear, what part of the words "when foreign criminals and terrorists are given sanctuary in this country" don't you understand. Come along perseus, why no answer, are you afraid that you might then be classed as racist or xenophobic or have you no idea what i am on about.
Now your playing the even immigrants dont like immigrants card. Priceless.
Perseus
I am not a UKIP supporter and I've never voted for them and I rather resent that your assume from what I said that I am.
I simply made a point over an observation that I have made which you class as 'playing the even immigrants don't like immigrants card'. As a matter of fact, I don't personnaly class people who were born in this country or people who have earned their right to a British passport as immigrants at all.
It strikes me that you are one of those people whose mind is closed and simply has to be right by trying to prove that everyone else is wrong. Intolerant, in other words and therefore hardly in a position to accuse anyone else of being the same.
Perseus, lets just assume for a moment that U.K.I.P. as a party are right of the political spectruml ( right wing if you like ). Nature hates a vacuum, and someone has to do it. Labour never will, it is tax and spend, big government, mass immigration, the Torys used to be a right wing government, but have ceased to be so, they were basically a party of low taxation, and small government, and controlled immigration. The Lib Dems, im not sure but after the last election the Lib Dems became the kingmakers, in so much as which ever party they went for became the goverment of the day, in this event they went for the tory`s the point is something Vince Cable said when asked about this on tv, he said if we had to get into bed with any party we are traditionally more comfortable with Labour, there you have it, the three major partys in a nutshell. I have mentioned to you previously on this forum, we have some things in common, and i don`t wish for any type of character assasination on the forum as it breeds hatred and intolerance in the end, i am sure you agree. U.K.I.P. as a relatively new party, has at the moment ( but getting better ) not been recognised as a brand, ( 3 main party`s just show voters a colour and they know who you mean ) to be continued.
The current calls from within his own party for Cameron to ditch the moves on gay marriage and reform of the House of Lords tells us that right-wingers aren't all confined to UKIP. There are many MPs who sign up to a party, Left or Right, simply because it gives them more chance of being elected even though their own views more accurately lie somewhere else.
I'm not a fan of UKIP but they are entitled to their place on the political stage and given the percentage of the general public that agree with their view on Europe, perhaps a better question is why this is not being more accurately reflected in Parlaiment.
Having mentioned about a brand and U.K.I.P. in particular, in the vein of Vince Cable if U.K.I.P. were to become kingmakers in a general election, it would be said U.K.I.P.s bedfellow of choice would be the Tory party. U.K.I.P. is starting to get more votes because, it is a party that fires warning shots to all political party`s namely on the EU what its end goal is, all political party`s know what a disaster it is, but wont tackle it, its end goal if you are interested is to bancrupt Britain as a country and at the same time destroy our national soverighty, I wont dwell on the EU any longer but the people are now starting to wake up to it. i have used a small I after the full stop to demonstrate i am only one voice but dont want to loose my nationality, nor become bancrupt as a country, nor do i wish to have a go at anyone who chooses to vote for any political party, or belief, nor do i have a problem with immigrants etc, who can blame them. I will leave you with some interesting news today, and you can tell me if you agree or disagree, one thing is for sure, if all can put party dogma away from the discussion, you cant say U.K.I.P. did not warn you, in fact if Cameron dosen`t move to the right, the people will choose U.K.I.P. i know what he will do. To be continued........
Now to finish off as mentioned the news today may seem news to many people, but for those who can rid themselves of party dogma, know these things in the news arent new at all, many have seen it coming, this is what U.K.I.P. has been trying to warn you about for years, you are beginning to listen, but no matter U.K.I.P. have won the argument on Europe. Some news today as i said you choose.
EU says all immigrants to get a british pension.
French vote in Hollande Socialist president ( Labour ) vows to increase taxes, borrow money, increase the public sector.
Human rights lets Serbian accused of war atrocity live here in council flat.
11,000 households on benifits, are as well off as those on higher rate taxpayers ( £47.000 )
Illegal immigrant Joy Chishimba, from Zambia, allowed to stay in her chelsea property even though she used a fake passport to defaud taxpayers out of £34,000. Like i say you have been warned.
N4M,
The Concervative party are traditionally right wing, as traditionally, Labour are left wing, both partys have been trying to shed this image and move to the centre ground, both party`s hate the voting system in this country and Labour has been playing dirty, but there are only those two views, it can be no other way, before you say rediculous the universe wont allow it. The universe is in essence duality, night and day, black and white,
right and wrong, etc. Which brings me to your point why this is not being more accurately reflected in parliment. to answer that and how Labour have been playing dirty. The question should be how far does the rabbit hole go.
I don't understand the Giddens bit.
Thanks..
Perseus, I must have explained badly, but the way it is, acording to there being only duality in the universe there can only be TWO, in this case political party`s, ( this becomes much easier to see if you do not subscribe / identify with any of them ) that is a very difficult thing to do the older you are, to help with a little more common ground, if there are only 2 political party`s, because of this duality they must be poles apart, which in reality they are, but today you must have heard you cant place a fag paper between them now, so the question is or should be where are they now, ( i was hopeing many reading my other threads would have seen this ). the answer is for many many years they have both been on the centre ground, those at the top know it, and you may notice how we always have a move from Labour to Conservatives at a general election, and a Labour voter, cant quite bring themselves to vote Tory, ( there`s the duality again ) and vise versa. Now the main question to ask is what is the natural home ( or pole for the 2 political party`s ) History will tell you this. I hope you have some questions, as the rabbit hole goes deeper.
The rabbit hole is meant to convey the points iv`e raised go much deeper, than the voter understands, and the 2 political party`s dont want you to know,again its important to have an open mind, ask away.
Also Perseus to answer your question, the only problem with the EU, the Labour Party, the Conservatives, is U.K.I.P. it alone has exposed the EU for what it is, and what it is to become, it also points a light on the main political party`s. All party`s dislike U.K.I.P. for doing this, remember all three major party`s put a three line whip on a vote for a referendum, meaning if you vote to have a referendum you lost your job as an MP, or forget any promotion. 81 MP`s defied Camron. what a triumph for concience. Also Tony Blair was not in the true sense of the word a Labour man, thats why he had to go.
Beanz I have waited for ages for a reply from you on the top police job thread..come on sort it out.. :(
Looks L a TORY, will have a look at it.
Cheers fella.
Kipperdip
The bit I don't get is why you cherry pick which bits you want to answer instead of just having a direct debate with him.
Why?
Quote from: kipperdip on May 08, 2012, 03: PM
LLTA - I'll debate anything with anyone, anytime. Perseus is not interested in debate.
Lets wait and see.
Demanding apologies and explanations for comments made by others which may be at variance with his conception of left wing orthodoxy is NOT indulging in debate it's a form of bullying.
OK
Sadly this bullying, self-righteous attitude is the defining characteristic of the leftist establishment.
OK
In their eyes there is only one allowable opinion, all else is heresy and must be silenced. The hallmarks of the totalitarian society in fact.
OK
Perseus is ever so fond of using the term 'populism' as a term of abuse. In his eyes there is only left wing orthodoxy, nothing else is allowed.
OK
If he wants a debate along the lines of 'right wing populism' versus left wing orthodoxy in an open public debate - BRING IT ON !!, perhaps Steve L could act as Chairman. I'll arrange a suitable eloquent speaker he can do the same. Plenty of time for a Q and A afterwards.
I'm telling you here and now - that won't happen, he'll run a mile.
Lets wait and see.
Bit surprised that you showed zero reaction to the substance of the post?
I have not the faintest idea if it was right, nearly right or wrong!!
So that's a No then "P"
Quote from: perseus on May 08, 2012, 04: PM
Pppffft. Does it sound like a no? When he responds directly to the big post i'll play ball. Until then. . . no dice.
That's how it reads to me.
I am quite surprised actually with your reply.
You say you want one thing and now you move the goal posts.
That long post doesn't need answering in one go to create a debate, if you were that bothered about it you could have asked all the same questions in a debate one at a time.
You have bottle it..fair enough..no problem to me but you have bottled it.
It's OK mate if Kipper is too much for you why not have it with Ryehill or someone simular that you might have a chance with.
Your stance reminds me of when I was a kid and someone wanted to fight but the other was saying..Ok I will fight you but it has to be in my street, I want all my friends there, my parents and I want to have a big stick but you have to come alone..
Wake up man..
I would have thought milkman.
Is this going to go on till the world agrees with you ...?
So are you now gunning for the remaining 4% .......? ::)
Perseus, the membership of U.K.I.P. is about 20k. Members and supporters of U.K.I.P. cannot beheld responsible for everything supposedly said or written by other members, just the same as you can't be held responsible for the actions of members of your local golf or cricket club. Most of the stuff you quoted has long been in the public domain and keeps getting resurrected, particularly when U.K.I.P. is seen as a threat, usually before elections.They have no relevance to the U.K.I.P. of 2012.
David Cameron's comments were uncalled for and appalled many Conservative supporters. Nigel Farage 's response was ' I don't mind him calling us loonies. I don't mind him calling us fruitcakes ------------------- but what you cannot do in the 21st. century is to lob about accusations of racism.
Perseus please note carefully because I object to being called a racist when there are absolutely no grounds for such an accusation.
We had a terrier who just wouldn't give up a bone ....we had him put down in the end.
Quote from: Riddler5 on May 08, 2012, 07: PM
We had a terrier who just wouldn't give up a bone ....we had him put down in the end.
Wouldn't have been cheaper to stop boning him?
Isn't it amazing when the PC, holier than thou brigade get asked questions about real life and what worries people like:
1 The illegal immigrants
2. Bogus asylum seekers
3. Foreign criminals and terrorists being given safe refuge in this country
4. Sex slaves
5. Worker exploitation by gang masters.
6. Parts of towns and cities being no go areas.
7. Why asylum seekers cross half of the free world to claim asylum here.
(I could go on) they never have the moral courage to answer, instead they seem to think that the answers to these sort of questions are only for racists, bigots etc. and should not be aired in front of children or that older people don't understand the new way of socialist thinking like good old Mr Blair and look at the mess he left behind on his way to millions.
Quote from: mk1 on May 08, 2012, 07: PM
Quote from: Riddler5 on May 08, 2012, 07: PM
We had a terrier who just wouldn't give up a bone ....we had him put down in the end.
Wouldn't have been cheaper to stop boning him?
Hmmm...to quote Hale and Pace 'We know a song about that, don't we'... 8)
You do seem on the back foot lately.
I can't believe Kipperdip got the better of you with a small amount of help from the ex school teacher.
Come on "P" do you homework and prove sir wrong.. :-\
Looks like they have you in detention.. ;D
So have the debate without the restrictions and lets find out.. ;)
Why does nobody want to answer the questions that most of the public want answering:
1 The illegal immigrants (Should they be deported)
2. Bogus asylum seekers (Should they be deported)
3. Foreign criminals and terrorists being given safe refuge in this country (Are their Human Rights more important than those of the citizens of the UK) etc. etc. etc.
Please someone answer and I promise not to call you racist or xzenophobic.
yip im with you m,everybody i sit with in the works canteen go on about it.
so is it do we get classed as a racist for thinking like this.
In a final , although probably futile effort, to engage Perseus in a non acrimonious discussion, remember it was he that inferred that U.K.I.P. candidates were less than human and racist to boot, I would like to point out that, all over the country U.K.I.P. representatives have been in debates in educational establishments, ranging from the Oxford Union to, at local level, Hartlepool 6th.Form College. If the representatives of all these schools and colleges are comfortable with U.K.I.P. by what right does Perseus have to deny them a platform for their perfectly respectable, and increasingly popular, belief that Britain would be better off out of the E.U.
Micksmate, I believe the Tories want to putt out of the European Treaty of Human Rights and replace it with a British Bill of Rights that would enable us to deport foreign criminals and bogus asylum seekers.
The problem is the loony left and Limp Dems are dead set against it and are doing anything they can to postpone it or kick it well and truly into the long grass!
You lot just leave the E.C.H.R. alone until further notice..and the Human Rights..I think they are great at looking after the little person in the street, from the might of the government and the bullies that work for them.
Just for info. The Human Rights Act is nothing to do with the EU. It was put together after the Second World War by people wishing to make illegal some of the dreadful things that pre-ceded it and that occurred during it. One of it's main supporters and designers was Winston Churchill and years later he declared it to be one of his greatest achievements.
I would guess one of the reasons that asylum seekers travel 'half way across the world' to the UK is that overseas, our country has the reputation of being one of the most, if not THE most tolerant country in the world.
If we want to decrease their numbers, perhaps it would be a good idea to force them to read this thread beforehand, in which case they would most likely change their mind quite quickly.
Note, I am not only talking about intolerance shown by UKIP supporters, which often displays itself through their sweeping generalisations, but also the intolerance shown by Perseus through his intolerance of UKIP and his suggestion that they should not be allowed a public platform.
Free speech is so fundamental to everything this country stands for and to deny it to others simply because you don't agree with what they say is a gross violation of that freedom.
UKIP have enough support in this country to be entitled to the same public platform as anyone else and I say that as someone who rarely agrees with anything that they say.
Well said Marky...
I didn't say anything against the Human Rights Act, simply the Treaty which means that we have to suffer the rulings of judges in Strasbourg who have 'interpreted' the H R Act in such a way that the rulings endanger or the rights of others.
Both the EU and UN state that if someone is seeking asylum then they should do so in the first safe country they reach. Forgive me, but unless all asylum seekers arrive by boat or plane from their original country, they have passed through numerous 'safe' countries to get here. Those other 'safe' countries who are also EU member states and sighned up to the EU Human Rights Treaty would have also afforded them the same level of rights.
So please don't give me the old "they come here as we are a beacon of true democracy and freedom" b*ll*cks.
Quote from: The Shadow on May 09, 2012, 01: PM
I didn't say anything against the Human Rights Act, simply the Treaty which means that we have to suffer the rulings of judges in Strasbourg who have 'interpreted' the H R Act in such a way that the rulings endanger or the rights of others.
And the Human rights lawyers can fill their bank accounts at the taxpayers expense
Both the EU and UN state that if someone is seeking asylum then they should do so in the first safe country they reach. Forgive me, but unless all asylum seekers arrive by boat or plane from their original country, they have passed through numerous 'safe' countries to get here. Those other 'safe' countries who are also EU member states and sighned up to the EU Human Rights Treaty would have also afforded them the same level of rights.
would or should
So please don't give me the old "they come here as we are a beacon of true democracy and freedom" b*ll*cks.
At last someone who can see the realities of life and is not afraid to say so, before anyone says anything i am not UKIP, BNP, EDL or anything else, just a concerned Grandfather who is incresingly worried about how things are progressing in this country. Another little insight the Asian men who were charged with grooming and have now been found guilty may appeal, their Asian lawyer is claiming racism among the jury, more taxpayers money in his pocket.
Quote from: Micksmate on May 09, 2012, 02: PM
Another little insight the Asian men who were charged with grooming and have now been found guilty may appeal, their Asian lawyer is claiming racism among the jury, more taxpayers money in his pocket.
Bit more to it than that. The fact is Nick Griffin (the ex boyfriend of Martin 'Sweetie' Webster) got the result of the Jury vote BEFORE they gave it to the judge and he tweeted it before it was announced.
Something funny is going on. If they do get off then it is all down to Nick.
By the way to all those who say it can't happen here I can only say there are takeaways in the town where the garlic sauce is suspect.
If you go to your local keebab house and you find it strangely closed for an hour then be very afraid of what is going on in the kitchens...............I kid you not.
Sorry to sound thick but is N.G. really a gay man.
I thought they were in to the anti gay message along with all the other rubbish they go on about.
I wish I had an understanding of the politics malarky..it all seems a bit f**c*** up to me.
Most of Hitlers Brownshirt leaders were homosexual.
It seems to be the norm among far right leadership circles.
http://griffinwatch-nwn.blogspot.co.uk/2009/08/martin-webster-on-nick-griffin-no-pun.html
The BNP are left wing. Look at their policies.
Quote from: The Shadow on May 09, 2012, 11: PM
The BNP are left wing. Look at their policies.
and my elbow is my ar-se
This is where I get confused..
Rightly or wrongly and correct me where I am wrong as I will be..
UKIP right wing far..
BNP the same.
Some Labour far Left others maybe not as much..
Tory right of middle but not to far right..
Green..their to stoned to care..
Libs where they are told to be..at the time but mainly middle of the road.
But this is where it is f*c*ed up for me more than above..
M.J.. far Left, Henry and the A.B.'s too
Brush.. right wing Labour
Slink.. middle to far left Labour.
Wells.. left of Tory.
Dr Snuggles.. where his told.
G.L./S.A.. where ever they think the votes are.
S.D..middle ground labour but will move to where he thinks his best off.
P.. with the big ar** whatever her name is lentle eating Leftie
Who the fella with the squashed face and always talks s**t..the accountant fella..Pretty left of Labour but does as his told by M.J and Henry
How am I getting on so far.
Well, OK, MK1, but it's more than just a debating point. And it's not just Right-wing voters like me who say it. Here for example, is the Left-wing New Statesman:
"A brief skim through BNP manifesto literature brings to light proposals for the following: large increases in state pensions; more money for the NHS; improved worker protection; state ownership of key industries. Under Griffin, the modern-day far right has positioned itself to the left of Labour."
All true, except that it's not a modern development. The BNP, like all fascist movements, emerged from the revolutionary Left. It dislikes free enterprise, hates the rich and resents the monarchy. It markets itself as "the Labour Party your parents voted for" and its last manifesto promised "to give workers a stake in the success and prosperity of the enterprises whose profits their labour creates by encouraging worker shareholder and co-operative schemes". Its support comes overwhelmingly from ex-Labour voters.
That fascism developed from socialism in the 1920s is a statement of observed historical fact. Read Hayek's chapter on "The Socialist Roots of Nazism" in The Road to Serfdom. The hatred between fascists and traditional socialists over the decades has been all the fiercer for being a hatred between brothers.
In what sense, then, is the BNP Right-wing? Some argue that it is Right-wing to discriminate on the basis of race and nationality rather than class and income, but this would surely make Stalin, Gerry Adams, Pol Pot and Robert Mugabe very Right-wing indeed. A true Rightist believes that, other things being equal, the individual should be as free as possible from state coercion: a position equally abhorrent to socialists of the National or Leninist varieties.
No, there is only one sense in which the BNP is Right-wing, and that is the BBC sense. Our state broadcaster uses the epithet "Right-wing" to mean "disagreeable". It thus applies the term equally to Vladimir Zhirinovsky, Vladimir Putin, Timothy McVeigh, Eugene Terre'blanche, Orthodox Jews, the Taleban, the Pope, the Orange Order and David Cameron.
For example, BBC correspondents invariably describe Iranian hardliners as "Right-wing". Never mind that the ayatollahs expropriated the bourgeoisie, nationalised swathes of the economy, abolished the monarchy and reversed their country's alignment with the United States and Britain. Right-wing, in Beebworld, simply means "someone with frightful opinions".
The soubriquet can be neatly applied to opposed sides in a conflict. Below, for example, is a discussion from Newsnight. Debating the burqa ban, a Leftie Egyptian journalist says that, while she detests the political Right, who don't want the burqa, she equally detests the Muslim Right, who do. So both banning the burqa and imposing the burqa are, in her eyes, Right-wing positions. This being a BBC discussion, no one demurs. If anything, though, I'd have thought that the opposite is the case: a proper Right-winger would argue that, while it is perfectly alright for businesses or individuals to prohibit face-coverings, the state has no business telling us people how to dress.
Any Lefties still reading by this point may well be fuming. How dare this Shadow fellow compare us to Nick Griffin? Even if Griffin happens to have reached the same position as us on a handful of issues, that doesn't mean that we're of the same political tradition.
True: most Lefties find Griffinism abhorrent. But turn things around, chaps, and you'll see how offensive you sound when you call the BNP Right-wing, implying that the only difference between fascism and conservatism is one of degree. Constant repetition doesn't make it any less rude.
wow - wiki's busy this week. ;)
Plagiarism at its worst, he's changed the name of the Conservative MEP, Daniel Hannan to his own (Shadow) to make it look as if he had written it. This is taken from The Telegraph's Blogs Editor, Damian Thompson piece. Shameful really.
Quote from: Micksmate on May 10, 2012, 02: PM
Plagiarism at its worst, he's changed the name of the Conservative MEP, Daniel Hannan to his own (Shadow) to make it look as if he had written it. This is taken from The Telegraph's Blogs Editor, Damian Thompson piece. Shameful really.
I a surprised Daniel Hannan knows MK1 :)
All I see is a right wing attempts to blame the worlds ills on the left and rid themselves of some uncomfortable history.
I am one of those simple souls who ignore the label and tastes the tins contents to decide the flavour.
The BNP/National Front/Nazi's/Tories are right wing groups.
For your convoluted theory to have any standing you would have to show a crossover of members between say Labour/Liberal and a far right party.
Point out where this happens...........
I didn't claim to write it Micksmate. The article is as true in its original form as it is in this.
QuoteAll I see is a right wing attempts to blame the worlds ills on the left and rid themselves of some uncomfortable history.
The same could be said about the left attempting to portray the BNP as right wing.
Conservatives and Libertarians alike will state, as is true, that they prefer a small less controlling state that allows people the freedom to do as they like (withing reason obviously). Protectionism and state controlled industries is not a policy of the right.
It is also worth remembering that the Nazis were named National Socialists for a reason.
You may take a simplistic view to it Mk1 but the fact remains that you are wrong.
I think I'm losing the will to live .......
This whole thread, all 20 pages of it, comes down to the age-old "I'm right and you're wrong" argument.
Red v Blue, Catholics v Protestants, Pools supporters v Darlo supporters, Tory v Labour, Muslims v Christians, Unions v Management .....etc.....etc
If this is the extend of how far we've advanced in the last 5,000 years then we may as well go back to the original tribe system (of which this is all a variation) and let him with the sharpest spear win.
That's life!!
Quote from: The Shadow on May 10, 2012, 02: PM
Protectionism and state controlled industries is not a policy of the right.
I really think you should look at the way the US protects its industrial base. I don't mean 'ordinary' industry but the high tech part.
You seem singularly ill informed about the Nazi party and its relationship with industry. One of the reasons they failed was the proliferation of competing firms who all made their own plans and designs for every tank/ship/aircraft contract. They ended up with 100 different designs of trucks and costly over-engineered (more profitable) weapons all made on production lines that ran only 10 hours a day. It was the freedom given to the likes of Krupp that was there undoing. Private enterprise taken to the extreme of using slave labourers and working them to death in the pursuit of 'choice'.
I think you will find it more productice to study someone like Tooze
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Wages-Destruction-Breaking-Economy/dp/0141003480
than reposting the specualtive ravings of some speccy little Tory
And you seem ill informed on the BNP.
So the Nazis did quite perfect the whole socialist model they may have hoped for (thankfully), that still does not mean they were right wing.
Quote from: The Shadow on May 10, 2012, 02: PM
And you seem ill informed on the BNP.
I think you will find I am very well informed on far right loony groups in the 1960s-1970s. I even know which leaders (all male) paired up and had affairs with each other!
Quote from: The Shadow on May 10, 2012, 02: PM
So the Nazis did quite perfect the whole socialist model they may have hoped for (thankfully), that still does not mean they were right wing.
You can close your eyes and spin around 3 times but it won't make a bit of difference.
The world will still be the one where the pinnacle of right wing worship is Adolf. The man who believed working the little people to death was the only way forward........
Just being mischievous Shadow, but for everyone's sake can anyone on here, in simple language, without quoting any theorist, economist, journalist, feminist or anything with an "ist" on the end, explain what is "Right" wing "Left" wing or "Centre" in political terms and perhaps the difference in what some people describe others as being "Racist Xzeophobics whilst others see them as patriots, not forgetting of course that not all people who claim to be proud to be British are white. Food for thought: "Supposedly" Enoch Powells biggest supporters (at the time of his rivers of Blood speech)were the Asian immigrants of the day.
MK1 - The Nazis were named National Socialists - True or false?
The right of the political spectrum oppose socialism - true or false?
Now perhaps we can get back to the BNP being a left wing party. If you disagree, please explain why.
Enoch was a brilliant man with a very sharp mind. No one could get the better of him in a debate and I saw many a interviewer completely demolished when they tried (in their view) 'corner him'.
His one fault was allowing his obsession with race to dominate his contribution to politics. His best course would have been to hold his views to himself but alas it was not to be.
Nor could Enoch be labeled as 'far right'. Like most of the Tory party in the 70's he had served in the war. These men had seen the result of rampant nationalism and they did their best to bring Europe together. The moronic flag-waving 'all out ills are caused by foriegners' pap we see today would cause them great pain.
The 'some of out members are Aisian' card is played a lot today by the BNP/UKIP/Edl but I never see any Rasta's at their marches!
Quote from: The Shadow on May 10, 2012, 03: PM
MK1 - The Nazis were named National Socialists - True or false?
I called one of my dogs Trigger but he wasn't a horse.
There was a party called
Democratic Unionist in N.Ireland in the 50's and 60's but if you were catholic you were not allowed to vote for it or any other party.
You getting my drift yet?
Quote from: Micksmate on May 10, 2012, 03: PM
Just being mischievous Shadow, but for everyone's sake can anyone on here, in simple language, without quoting any theorist, economist, journalist, feminist or anything with an "ist" on the end, explain what is "Right" wing "Left" wing or "Centre" in political terms and perhaps the difference in what some people describe others as being "Racist Xzeophobics whilst others see them as patriots, not forgetting of course that not all people who claim to be proud to be British are white. Food for thought: "Supposedly" Enoch Powells biggest supporters (at the time of his rivers of Blood speech)were the Asian immigrants of the day.
I'll gladly do that for you when I drive home from Newcastle in an hour or so. (It'd be far too tedious a task on an iPhone!)
For the uninitiated:
This is nothing other than a right wing adherant who is ashamed of his movements past.
To this effect he has attempted to distance himself from Hitler by trying to rebrand his far far right Nazi party as a a communist front!
Incredible as it may seem he is telling you that the looney US right wing 'white Power/Neo Nazi/survivalist groups are actualy socialists.
I know we have members here who used to belong to the UK branches openly Nazi loving groups so perhaps they can chip in and confirm they were indeed socialist and/or communists?
The truth is that the left have for decades tried to distance themselves from the far left groups like the BNP and portray them as far right.
You have done a good job at it Mk1 I'll admit but facts are facts and I would encourage you to read the BNPs manifesto then try telling me they aren't left wing.
You will find racists in all walks of life and from all political outlooks, Diane Abbott is a good example from the 'caring' Labour party, just as you will find homophobic, xenophobic and down right nasty people across the political spectrum.
As KD points out, I am correct. X
Sorry mate but the worm is refused.
Look elswhere for sport as I have more important things to do.
Come on fella's., it was a simple request what is "Right" wing, "Left" wing or "Centre" ground in politics. If someone calls someone the "N" word is he "Left" wing "Right" wing or the poor excuse "Centre" and as for Kipperdip and his "theoretical nuance" what has Chelsea's full back got to do with it? We can all "Google" it "Wikepedia" it along with the rest of the search engines and make ourselves look bright and intelligent, but and the big but is, does/will it answer the questions? By the way where has perseus gone?
Kipper it is no secret you were a member of these far right groups in your youth
Put aside any fellow feeling you have for Shadow and answer this.
Were these groups left wing and were you a miltant Socialist?
A simple answer please..............
.
I am losing interest in politics..it preaches hate as it's core message and the rest is then downhill from there.
Quote from: testicles on May 11, 2012, 01: AM
My Testicles are really itchy.
That's a rash remark.........
I know the feeling, a cats tongue is like sandpaper!
Quote from: Micksmate on May 11, 2012, 12: AM
Come on fella's., it was a simple request what is "Right" wing, "Left" wing or "Centre" ground in politics. If someone calls someone the "N" word is he "Left" wing "Right" wing or the poor excuse "Centre" and as for Kipperdip and his "theoretical nuance" what has Chelsea's full back got to do with it? We can all "Google" it "Wikepedia" it along with the rest of the search engines and make ourselves look bright and intelligent, but and the big but is, does/will it answer the questions? By the way where has perseus gone?
Sorry Micksmate I didn't get chance to type up a reply last night and I'm at work again now.
To answer this question. Calling someone the "N" word is neither Left or Right. It is simply a racist remark. You will find racists on the left, right and centre ground.
That said, there are people on here trying to argue that a tub of Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream is ACTUALLY NOT ice cream at all but is in fact the head gasket of a ford mondeo.
Thats it, I`m not opening this thread again.....i have reached the point of not knowing if I`m GaGa or everyone else is. lol
Yeh, yeh, you read The End of History and posted much of it but I am not convinced of your argument or even your views sir.
Perseus if you act like a child, I will treat you like a child..firstly wrongly of course you say I am a Ukipper, not at all, never voted for them, don't intend to anytime soon either, so that's that.
When you mince on about pathetic and tragic, you clearly are not talking about me, as I am neither.
When you talk of shooting fish in a barrel, that's not me either, I would kick the barrel over, like your argument, and leave the fish to die natually, like your argument.
It's not my fault I can take paragraphs of these great big long posts of yours and put them into google to souce where you souce the information from. That's your fault for doing it.
I like the way you removed all the words "and".. and replaced them with commas to make it look lilke your own.
You said you were paraphrasing Francis f*c*uyama but were you? or was it more the case you were simply copying and pasting most of your post from elsewhere.
I for one would have like to hear your views rather than F.F.'s.
Quote from: perseus on May 11, 2012, 03: PM
You fear for your Grandchildren Sir? I understand that, but again I do not agree. If I was alive in the 1940's I too would have feared for my grandchildren.
Largely due to the likelihood of them being sent across the sea to dig a hole in a field and be shot.
Priceless, kin priceless, perhaps you would like to share these views with the families of the 8000 plus British servicemen and women KIA since the Second World War or the families of the thousands who have committed suicide unable to cope with what they have witnessed serving their queen and country, not defending these shores but in far off climes, so that people of different skin pigmentation, race and religion can live in peace, perhaps the men and women and their families at Headley Court, the Medical Rehabilitation Centre in Surrey, trying to rebuild their lives after having their bodies destroyed in what has been described by various MP's as the front line defence of this country.
Perhaps you would like to express your views to my friends son when, god willing, he returns from his tour of duty in Afghanistan, these people live in the real world, perhaps one day when the utopian bubble your parents have created for you, bursts you will realise that the theories of your heros (Giddens etc.) and the real world don't combine.
Quote from: perseus on May 12, 2012, 08: AM
I'll just repeat something LLTA, 2 of the 22 paragraphs are indeed taken from fukuyamas end of history text and manipulated very slightly to support my argument. Hence why i referenced him and stated I was paraphrasing.
And I repeat I want to hear your views, not the views of the books you have read nut nut.
You can google the other 20 odd paragraphs until the cows come home and you wont find them anywhere. Those ARE my thoughts. Yes i've read fukyama (you didn't know who he is did you?), i've read Hegel, Marx, Durkhiem, Giddens . . . I could go on.
None of it's your view really, that f*c* your not reading Mr Men books.
What IS tragic, is i've now got dragged into a 'debate' with a man whose last reading material ended up with the pages of the text stuck together as you fumbled around trying to pull your pants back up.
I wasn't aware it was a debate, as surely if your quoting others in all your posts then you are sharing their views rather than your own, which is my point in the first place. your a fraud, dress it up anyhow you like but your still a fraud.
As for your snide comments, keep on, in time we will see if that the right tactic to have.
Quote from: perseus on May 12, 2012, 09: AM
So i'm not allowed to have a view that other people have also? Oh yes of course i forgot, ALL views people have are totally independent arent they? Impossible for anyone to share right? LLTA, i have yet to see an articulate post on this thread from YOU. All you do is re post somebody elses post and slot bits in trying to troll it. DO YOU actually HAVE any views? Either shared with others like fukuyama or in total independence? I don't think you do.
Not on UKIP I don't. I have many views on many topics but I don't copy from Wikipedia or other interenet site and call them my own.. what a fraud you are.
Shining light no mate..your more Coco
Your quite right I never attended university, school either mostly, as I was in care as a child in those educational years that mattered.
Never been a big deal to me to be honest.
Never stopped my owning in the past, decent size buisness's, completing work for a rather large blue chip company, infact my lack of university time has never held me back in the slightest.
Would I have gone if I had had the chance? no not a hope of it.
Common sense is what I have made a living from and a street wise ability to survive and long may that continue long after you noodle days of university have long been forgotten.
Quote from: perseus on May 12, 2012, 09: AM
And perhaps you'd like to change the focus of the DEBATE AGAIN to deflect attention from the main points of my post. Of course I have sympathy for the 8,000 or so sons and daughters KIA since the war MM. Thats the whole point don't you see? Yes there have been many tragic deaths SINCE the war and those peoples familes have my heart. But MM, how many died in the war? And i include the jews and the japanese in that if you'd care to look for the statistic. I dont need to, i know it was MILLIONS. As i said in the post, there will still be conflict for decades, hundreds of years even, but the eutopia I TAUGHT MYSELF about, is the way forward for civilisation. Whats the plan (b) ? More world war and genocide? Personally, if i have to eat a banana with a certain degree of curvature of weigh myself in kilos to get where humans need to go then i'm ok with that.
After reading that, I would just like to know whether you are snorting or injecting whatever it is you're on.
"Personally, if i have to eat a banana with a certain degree of curvature of weigh myself in kilos to get where humans need to go then i'm ok with that".
Try and make a debate about that, personally, my belief is that anyone who puts that on a public forum has got to be on something.
About the only decent thing that the various governments of this country has done is keep the Queens head on our bank notes, perhaps you should try going to tell the peoples of Ireland, Greece , Spain, Italy, Portugal etc. how all is so wonderful in your little (e)utopian Eurozone. Perhaps while in greece you should have a word with the MP who openly declared that all "Illegal imigrants" should be deported from HIS country, not Greece or the EU superstate but HIS country and ask him to explain himself. How subhuman is that man.
Perseus, you have the makings of a Dictator. You allow people the 'right' to hold an opposing view but then shower it with your contempt. You have your own 'world view' and amusingly (to me anyway) proclaim your supposed intellectual superiority throwing in abstract references to higher education and establishments such as Cambridge ..... and end up sounding like a 14 year old child prodigy who doesn't get out a lot.
Maybe no one cares eh?
Harvard referencing?
Quote from: perseus on May 12, 2012, 01: PM
Happy to do as of now then (assuming everyone else does?). . . Doesn't change 90% of what i wrote a few posts back those does it?
Not biting, P. 8)
Quote from: perseus on May 12, 2012, 01: PM
Nah, i'm going to leave this thread alone for a while and if KD comes back with any actual argument. I don't see it though.
T.F.F.T.
Oh, don't be so cruel, Stokoe...I wanted the last word... :'(
Quote from: perseus on May 12, 2012, 01: PM
Given a few thousand views, a couple of hundred replies and probably the longest thread on HTH ever, that suggests to me like they do care. The old guard on here started this all off, spouting their 'god save the queen' and 'don't let them in' rubbish.
Has it ever dawned on you that your 'popularity' is like the popularity of a howling dog in the middle of the night, the amount of objects hurled at you do not signify popularity, but if the delusion makes you feel good about yourself .......
As for the HE stuff, i was challenged on source material and where i got my information from. What would you like me to do? Apologise for reading books?
I'd appreciate it if you did apologise for reading books actually, .... apologise for not reading a wide enough spectrum of them.
Politics and religion...brings out the best & worst in people. :'(
If I may add my thoughts to the debate;
I can see the pro's and con's of both sides of the argument.
For instance, what is wrong in a country wanting to send back 'illegal immigrants'?
Take the Uk. Govt. figures that show in areas of the country, social services, medical and educational facilities are stretched to breaking point.
Why would we condone 'illegal immigration' to exacerbate those services further?
The UK has a wonderful mix of peoples and cultures and is a better, more vibrant country for it.
That doesn't mean to say we can have an open door policy for any amount of people that consider they would have a better lifestyle by living in the UK.
I do feel for the peoples of countries run by despots and the like. However, it is up to the people of their country to address the issues themselves, not run away to another country.
I know, it's not an easy thing to do but surely, your country is worth fighting for?
We are a small island and MUST strike a balance.
So yes, we do need to control immigration, including 'illegals', so that the quality of life for everyone in the UK is not reduced to poverty levels by severe overcrowding.
Their forcasts are generally correct. On May 3rd they predicted a "washout" and then lost all of their council seats ;)
Quote: "Doesn't change 90% of what i wrote "
You're not Ernie Wise reincarnated, are you?
Finally business is picking up on this threat.
I enjoyed reading both of the last two posts..don't know who's right but enjoyed reading the different views all the same.
As someone that HAS to monitor and manage the household budget, it is a complete disgrace (and illegal?) that the EU has had its annual budget accounts not signed off AGAIN, this being the 18th consecutive year. :o
The EU committee of auditors states that the budget of £104 BILLION has a 3.7% error...that is £3.9 BILLION unaccounted for. :o >:(
The accountants statement was "The accounts are still affected by material error".
You will no doubt remember the Euro parliament budgetary control committee head, Marta Andreason, who was sacked by the EU parliament in 2002 for trying to highlight the 'losses' and 'fiddles' being committed by MEPs and others. :(
As this is a debate, my point of view is that Germany is trying to accomplish by stealth what it failed to do twice before.
And, just as before, France has rolled over to have its belly tickled.
Is the UK going to be the only European country to face up to Germany once more?
We do not wish to be ruled by Brussels, Strasbourg, Berlin..we want OUR laws, made by our politicians on our behalf.
Try not to bite too hard kipper let him ramble on, you will notice there is no end result to his posturing, all he will do is paraphrase his heroes, the ones he name drops now and again, like Durkheim, Weber, Giddens and Garfinkel etc. the Theorists who glorify themselves as Sociologists and who all disagree with each others theories, also if it's any comfort Kipper, Giddens has more critics than you have.
This is the man who has to make up words to try and get his point across, words like "structuration" and when people start to argue his theories he turns the arguments 180 degrees by taking base derived words like "Dualism" and "Dualist" and turning them on their heads to muddy the water. These people cocoon themselves within the bosom of like minded people who argue "You don't understand because you are not intelligent enough, but we understand because we are more intelligent than you are" when in reality they haven't got a (kin) clue. To make matters worse Mussolini used some of these peoples theories on his path to Fascism, which as we all know is much worse than Britishness. There was a time when" Britain ruled the waves", now it's a case of "Britain waives the rules"
Quote:
"I voted for a party whom I thought might fight to keep my sons tuition fees to a manageable level, said party then played a big part in trebling the fees.
I've voted for politicians who swore blind they'd clean up dog s**t then watched them fill their boots on the board of C.I.C's and such like.
I've voted to keep a hospital and then watched as the party who implied they would fight for it rolled over and had their bellies tickled right there in front of us as half the town promptly voted them back in."
This from a man who self confessed, in some of his posts that he is more intelligent than others on this site.
Perseus, that is the whole point of what a number of posters on here are saying...WE don't WANT to 'rule the waves', as you put it.
Been there, got the t-shirt.
The UK is contemplating removing the 'Empire' aspect from various 'gongs' (MBE, OBE, CBE etc), as being too old fashioned and too much like we still rule an Empire. We don't wish to have, or 'co-rule' an empire and we do not wish to be ruled by one, either. 8)
The missing BILLIONS is not simply transactions that have gone wrong and a company/country is 'out of pocket'.
The vast majority of that money is alleged to being misappropriated by MEPs.
That is not the usual business problems, it is theft.
Like the MEP that claimed £850 for fuel, driving from her home in the UK to Brussels.....despite the fact she actually FLEW there at a cost of £250. :-[
And that, my friend, is the very tip of the rotten iceberg.
Which is why Marta was unceremoniously discarded by the EU. She was lifting too many stones and shining a light under them..........
We have enough liars, cheats and thieves in our own parliament...we simply do not require another tier of thieving bureaucracy. >:(
Is there any truth that every year since it's been formed the accountants refuse to sign off the accounts?
Quite simply, the EU has proved to many (obviously not yourself) that it is a superfluous organisation that has failed Europe, has forced a monetary unit on countries that can not 'keep up with the Jones' and are now suffering horrendously, as their Govt's. accept more debt from the EU...which they have a snowball in hell's chance to pay back. :-[ :'(
And on top of that scenario, BILLIONS is being squandered, lost, stolen.
European Union? Execrable Union, more like.
And as I obviously can't see your logic, as you can't see mine, this has to be my last post on the matter....because like football posts, they just keep going on and on...round and round.
Well I know in ten days it could pay a top of the bollox hospital.
In a year it could build 52 top of the bollox hospital and we could all have one.
Plenty of buses for the old people to go bingo..
New schools, more police, fire, nurses, training schemes, back to work courses and placements etc
Goes a f*c*ing long way 50m a day.
;D Thank God we agree on something then ;D
Remind me what my family get for this 50m a day will you please sir.
My family would have most of them rights if we were not in the E.U. so why pay £50m a day for them.
Doesn't tell me what benefit me or my family get out of the £50m a day given to the E.U. which is the question I am asking.
Quote from: perseus on May 14, 2012, 04: PM
N.B
I've been in a debate with Derek Clark (UKIP MEP for the East Midlands) before, and (this is boasting admittedly) I wiped the floor with him. So if you think i'm refusing to pick up any gauntlet thrown down by you lot think again.
Just out of interest too, in the debate Mr Clark spoke up about smoking and championed the libeterian view that it should be "a man's right to smoke if he wants". He then attempted to support this belief and indeed dismiss the whole anti smoking message advocated by most modern day western governments with the following statement.... (and I'm quoting) "Smoking isn't half as bad for people as some people like to make out, my grandmother smoked like a chimney but lived to a ripe old age, so I don't support the science that says otherwise".
If I could capture any image on a camera in my career thus far, it would be the facial expression made by the lady from the NHS who was sat to my right as Derek came out with that gem.
Sounds interesting, where, when and what was this debate about and in what capacity did you attend? As for the smoking issue, there were many people who smoked like chimney's and lived to a ripe old age but that dosen't alter the facts. As for the anti-smoking brigade would they also buy into the argument for banning more than one car per household, if they ask why, ask them what they would rather be locked in a room with, full of cigarette smoke or full of car exhaust fumes.
Can I just remind everyone of the forum's clever facility which allows new threads to be created for new topics of discussion. ;) This saves individual threads from being used as personal blogs.
It is an interesting point that you, Perseus, were quite happy to share a platform with Derek Clark U.K.I.P. ME.P. , but you are prepared to deny the right of U.K.I.P. members to take part in a debate at English Martyrs.
It wasn't your decision to make! Who made the decision for you ?
One thing the E.U is good at is propaganda. Like Goebbels it has the philosophy that the bigger the lie then the more likely that it will be believed. Lets look at some of these lies and try to get to the truth.
1. The E.U. has kept peace in Europe for 60 years. Not so . There are a number of reasons why there has been peace in Europe since 1945. The American nuclear shield, the formation of N.A.T.O. the growth of mass travel, development of modern communications particularly T.V. even major sporting events. The E.U. founded in 1993 is,probably ,a contributory factor but not the single most important reason. Don't forget Kosovo where the E.U. failed miserably to handle a problem in its own backyard and needed American intervention to sort it out. The way things are shaping up the E.U.could be the catalyst for an outbreak of hostilities between European countries.
2 The E.U. is good for trade. This claim wrongly assumes that there was little trade in Europe before the E.U. This is nonsense. The people of Europe have traded happily for centuries.From Britains point of view before 1973 we had a healthy trade balance with the rest of Europe but now we have a massive deficit. The abolition of trade barriers in the E.U. could have easily been attained without entering a political union. The free movement of labour has not been beneficial to the British people. What is the value of having 4 million economic migrants working in this country when we have 2.5 million unemployed. That is the economics of the madhouse. In addition the cost of the social affect is incalculable.
3. 3 million British jobs depend on our trade with the E.U. Many British jobs are dependent on our export trade and many British jobs have always depended on our trade with our European neighbours .. Many German or French jobs depend on their membership of the E.U. If Britain left the E.U. tomorrow these countries would continue to trade with us because it is in their interest to do so. The E.U. does not create jobs it destroys them . Roger Helmer M.E.P. noted that the E.U. had a committee for unemployment which has been very successful because their is an awful lot of unemployment in the E.U.
Lots of people complain about the number of economic migrants that come to the UK for work but they always fail to mention the fact that a large number of UK citizens/subjects have also moved to other EU countries to work. Look at how many Brits went to Holland and Germany to work.
Works both ways.
My mate took on a guy from Poland and his great..
Can't speak English, so no lip from him..does put the English lads to shame with his work ethic in honesty.
Quote from: admin on May 15, 2012, 11: AM
Can I just remind everyone of the forum's clever facility which allows new threads to be created for new topics of discussion. ;) This saves individual threads from being used as personal blogs.
What's a blog??
Shadow you are quite right ,it does work both ways but the inbalance of numbers is the problem. Remember when East European countries joined the E.U. ,initially only G.B. Eire and Sweden allowed their nationals free access to jobs. This meant for economic migrants there was limited choice of countries . At the same time the Labour government assured us that only about 13k migrants would come here. That was a blatant lie and it has turned out that at least 2million East Europeans are now working in this country. This is another example why people are critical of our membership of the E.U. our own government has to lie to us on E.U. matters. So how can we trust them to look after our interests?
The E.U. has kept peace in Europe for 60 years. Not so . There are a number of reasons why there has been peace in Europe since 1945.
Completely misses the point.
The western countries (mainly UK/France/Germany have centuries of conflict with each other.
The EU (promoted by that arch lefty/commie stooge Churchill) was meant to bind those nations so tightly together that a war between them would never again be possible. It has worked for 70 years.
It had nothing to do with the Soviet Union or the mire that is eastern Europe.
You must be careful when linking your 2 greatest evils on the planet (EU and the Commies) together and drawing false conclusions.
Just in case anyone is interested here is a list of all European conlicts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe#19th_century
Note how many times nation states have attacked each other in ths last centuries and how it has vanished from the west since 1945.
OK folks a quiz.
Which nation has invaded the most countries in the last 60 years.
1 The Soviet Union.
2 China
3 Libya
4 Iran
5 Iraq
6 N. Korea
7 Syria
8 United States.
I will make it easier
Which nation on that list has invaded more countries than all the others combined. and then some.
Pray tell me again about democratic nations not starting wars.
United States.. have you not seen the tee shirt that shows all the dates on their world tour. shocking.
So 3,000 plus views, 40 pages of posts has anyone changed their views and opinions on UKIP..
I haven't really.
Quote from: perseus on May 16, 2012, 11: AM
I don't see races, nationalities, borders etc. I just see humans. Some more civilised than others.
When you say civilised would that mean able to tolerate the beliefs, actions, opinions, etc., of others?
For someone who started with such a good post, to start your time on the forum with, it's rapidly gone down hill for you.
You got everyones attention with that post and then spunked it totally since.
Your not off message just intolerable of other people views and opinions.
I would hate to live in your house as you would be one of those chaps that say "while your living under my roof you will do as I say" blar blar blar.
The only opinion that matters to you is yours.
Quote from: LookslikeTORYagain on May 16, 2012, 03: PM
The only opinion that matters to you is yours.
Hang on a minute while I shut this machine down and reboot it to see if I really read that. ;)
Good old perseus, name dropping as usual and quoting them, what's the matter man can you not think for yourself. You say you have read Giddens etc. but you didn't buy into it all, well from my point of view you really are a student of these "Theorists" just like them you talk gobbledegook and try to baffle brains with bulls**t, there is no rhyme nor reason and certainly no end product to your posts, I doubt if there is anyone on this site can honestly say, they fully understand your posts.
Now let me tell you a little fairy tale. Once upon a time there was a wondrous creature called the "European Common Market" so wondrous was it that even the bunch of "mostly' backward thinking deluded old men wrapped up in racism** without actually even being aware of the ideology they're cocooned in" (your words) believed in it and agreed to join it and be friends with it, but sadly like most fairy tales it didn't come true. Why you may ask, because along came the naughty people, the ones who dress up as friends of the working class, people like Roy Jenkins, the son of a Welsh coal miner, who in 1970, was elected Deputy Leader of the Labour Party, he supported entry to the Common Market, while the party opposed it. So disgusted with this, he cried if we don't join the ECM I will resign, thus he resigned from British politics in 1976 and was appointed President of the European Commission in 1977, serving until 1981: he was the first and to date only British holder of this office, doubling his previous salary in doing so. Seeing the glitter of gold, others followed, the King and Queen of Wales Neil and Glenys, soon the fairy tale turned into a nightmare, the nightmare that is the EU (Look under your bed before turning out the lights)
Quiz: What is the difference between war and conflict?
Donkey ..I do listen to other people views and opinions and ask lots of questions if I am unsure. Also my view can change is someone puts a reasonable argument over that changes my mind, so that is the difference in my view.
But you can still have your view that's cool.Quote from: Micksmate on May 16, 2012, 03: PM
Good old perseus, name dropping as usual and quoting them, what's the matter man can you not think for yourself. You say you have read Giddens etc. but you didn't buy into it all, well from my point of view you really are a student of these "Theorists" just like them you talk gobbledegook and try to baffle brains with bulls**t, there is no rhyme nor reason and certainly no end product to your posts, I doubt if there is anyone on this site can honestly say, they fully understand your posts.
Now let me tell you a little fairy tale. Once upon a time there was a wondrous creature called the "European Common Market" so wondrous was it that even the bunch of "mostly' backward thinking deluded old men wrapped up in racism** without actually even being aware of the ideology they're cocooned in" (your words) believed in it and agreed to join it and be friends with it, but sadly like most fairy tales it didn't come true. Why you may ask, because along came the naughty people, the ones who dress up as friends of the working class, people like Roy Jenkins, the son of a Welsh coal miner, who in 1970, was elected Deputy Leader of the Labour Party, he supported entry to the Common Market, while the party opposed it. So disgusted with this, he cried if we don't join the ECM I will resign, thus he resigned from British politics in 1976 and was appointed President of the European Commission in 1977, serving until 1981: he was the first and to date only British holder of this office, doubling his previous salary in doing so. Seeing the glitter of gold, others followed, the King and Queen of Wales Neil and Glenys, soon the fairy tale turned into a nightmare, the nightmare that is the EU (Look under your bed before turning out the lights)
Quiz: What is the difference between war and conflict?
*****
A five star post in my view.
See that's the problem when you use terms like Rolling over or backing down..that what this is to you..
Your off your trolley mate, straight up and honest with you.
Quote from: LookslikeTORYagain on May 16, 2012, 03: PM
Donkey ..I do listen to other people views and opinions and ask lots of questions if I am unsure. Also my view can change is someone puts a reasonable argument over that changes my mind, so that is the difference in my view.
But you can still have your view that's cool.
I was joking, hence the ;) !
Perseus , I am going to surprise you by agreeing that the theoretical concept of a European Union had a lot going for it . Unfortunately it hasn't developed in the way that enthuses ordinary people all over Europe and what we have today is not what the vast majority of people want. Not only are the unelected people at the top unsavoury, Barroso ex Marxist, Ashton ex C.N.D. Rumpoy ex ? but it appears that the whole organisation just meddles in peoples lives. It is a control freaks dream and a bureaucratic nightmare. It stifles trade and initiative with resulting high unemployment as bad as anything in the 30's. We are witnessing events in parts of Europe which is leading to the growth of extremism on both the left and right of the political spectrum. Worst of all the introduction of the Eurozone has probably been the biggest civil disaster in Europe since the Black Death.
The Conservative Party has, for many years, declared that we are in Europe not controlled by Europe and that they would prefer to change the E.U. from within. Somebody should tell them that the E.U. does not change. Many of their rank and file members have realised this and left the party in disgust. Dislike of the E.U. is not the preserve of U.K.I.P. It is shared by millions of people all over Europe. What we should be discussing is how will a post E.U. Europe evolve, preferably without an exchange of insults.
Quote from: Micksmate on May 16, 2012, 03: PM
Quiz: What is the difference between war and conflict?
War is a prolonged state of continuous physical violence between two or more organized and armed groups, whether national or transnational organizations. War is characterized by the mobilization of large groups of armed men fighting for discernible gain, such as land or resources.
Conflict is a prolonged state of hostility between two or more organized groups that encompasses a wider variety of factors, whether these are political or economic. Israel has fought 5 wars (War of Independence, Six-Day War, Yom Kippur War, two invasions of Lebanon) but remains in a perpetual state of conflict with Palestinians, using border control and economic leverage against them.
P.S. Nicked from Google but it sounds about right.
d) "The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the rampant determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe". (Mikhail Gorbachev last General Secretary of the Soviet Union, 1985 - 1991 speaking about the EU)
Thank you, Kipperdip, I wasn't aware of that quote when I wrote my piece about the EU and communism.
If the man at the top of the Russian quest for world domination could see through communism for what it was and renounced it, then my thoughts on the new European communism are confirmed.
It is a cosy set up for dodgy politicians, rewarding themselves beyond avarice and raping other countries and democracies as they go along.
The UK can stand alone and is stronger than the vast majority of countries making up the satan called the EU. They need us more than we need them. (That said, we do still need to trade with them but it is quid pro quo).
Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, France? All second rate weak countries being bled dry by the EU.
Only Germany is stronger than the UK and that is why they are determined to have us knuckle under. :o
The politburo utopia is doomed, let's have the funeral. :D
Quote from: perseus on May 17, 2012, 08: AM
So just to clarify, when I quote people I'm name dropping, but when you do it it's ok? Is that how this site works?
Just to clarify, twas i that said you were name dropping, no one else. Judging by the comments in other posts it seems that I am not the only one who finds your posts rather boring and self esteeming. xx
Remember the U.K.I.P. slogan 'Love Europe, hate the E.U.' The continent of Europe is a geographical entity, of which we are a part, with over 40 other countries all with individual customs, language etc. The E.U. is a political union of 27 countries cobbled together , usually without the democratic agrrement of the citizens of those counties. Perseus please use the correct terminology when writing about the E.U.
Hasn't Greece just pulled £800m from banks in Europe as they are now out of the European game game just about.
Bye take care
Drop in next time your heads straight and we can have a sensible chat about the things that matter in/to the town.
If you have to ask the question you have not got it!!
3rd highest council tax in the country
Losing the hospital
Mayor ripping the p iss out of us
Councillors ripping the p iss out of us
Our hard earned council tax being wasted big time
The list goes on but you will struggle with it of course, as even Ryehill is now well infront of you and he would be the first to admit his crap at heated debates.
Init time. ;D
Hardly drawn into a debate but rather bating the UKIP lads for their views and opinions.
I know you will want the last word and you are welcome to it as it isn't important to me to have...so fill you boots. ;D