Had a meeting tuesday evening with another meeting planned for this tuesday evening might pop along to see what they have to say.
Went to the MHAAG meeting last week with an open mind it was very well organised with everyone given the chance to aire there views.
The odeon to be turned into student flats is a great idea for the building and the area. i'm going to attend this Thursday to see what the HUFC and Gus Robinsons representives have to say.
Student flats sounds like a good idea but every time I walk passed the building I wonder just how much it would cost to restore it. There must be a point when it becomes cheaper just to flatten it and re-build - even if it's for student accomodation.
I know it's a Grade 2 listed building but similar Art Decor Odeons have been demolished everywhere around the country. It's OK sticking a grading on a building but no one ever explained where the money comes from to maintain it and as a result the country is dotted with such derelict 'graded' buildings.
Is it private money that will be used to upgrade it stevel.
Well you only have to read the Mail tonight to see that there's no public (council) money around. The building is owned by the Wilkies at the moment but, as far as I can tell, there doesn't appear to be any legal obligation to maintain it beyond the point of making it safe. Compulsory purchase seems the only option to me but if the college took on the cost of converting it to student accommodation it would be hard to make a case that they should pay the extra to convert the existing building should this prove to be more expensive than flattening it and rebuilding it.
I'm not convinced myself. A lot of the buildings 'art-decor' credentials went out the window (literally) when the previous conversion to a night club took place. There's really only the art decor cladding on the outside left intact and I'm sure some
way could be found to incorporate this into any new build.
Pity really, but I think it's a bit late to start shouting architectural heritage. The link to any Mill House redevelopment seems a bit tenuous to me but hey - if it rids the town of a long-standing eyesore then so be it.
Student accommodation would be better placed near Church Street wouldn't it ?
Easy to get to classes and boozers.
surely its more about using the odeon and bringing it back to a useable property than the need for pubs close by, also there are pubs,clubs close by that are actually open all week rather than a couple of hours on a weekend, and proximity for attending classes we are talking a 10 minute walk. and what alternative properties are there in church street area that are unused and suitable to be converted into student accomodation.
I'm not sure if would be right for the college to use public money to renovate the Odeon if it would be cheaper to build from scratch, which I suspect it would. It's not the college's responsibility to bring derelict buildings back into use; their responsibility would be to provide student accommodation at the most cost effective price.
Some fairly recent photos of the interior of the Odeon here:
http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=66783
Not taken by me!
but is it the college who would be funding it, or is it to be done by another party who will then rent direct to the students, but by having the accommodation available would the college be able to attract more students from other areas
The odeon is a lovely art deco building and brought up to date but keeping that art deco look would be fantastic.
Seems a bit of a stretch to do that in a building with no windows!
be interesting to actually see the proposals
Surely the point is that it would mean cost over and above what was strictly necessary to provide student accomodation. It doesn't really matter who pays. Whoever it is will want to recover the cost through higher than necessary rents which I doubt the college would support. Looks to me that whichever way you look at it the present building is doomed.
Building probably doomed but the facade needn't be. When they built that new shopping centre near Grey's Monument in Newcastle they propped the front up while rebuilding behind it. The same approach seems to be used all over Europe, where civic pride and an eye on tourist euros prevents too much messing with the look of old city centres. They obviously aren't planning to restore the Odeon to former glories and then charge students to live in the balcony on a strict diet of Toffee Poppets abd cartons of Kia-Ora. Hopefully we'll see some creative thinking rather than more of the defeatism that sees old buildings left to rot until demolition is the only option.
The frontage could be clad onto any other building in Hartlepool and preserved, then demolish it.
The Odeon is an eyesore and it must be awful for the residents of the area to look at it very day. so maybe an change to the building will improve the look.
Quote from: From a distance on June 13, 2012, 12: PM
Building probably doomed but the facade needn't be. When they built that new shopping centre near Grey's Monument in Newcastle they propped the front up while rebuilding behind it. The same approach seems to be used all over Europe, where civic pride and an eye on tourist euros prevents too much messing with the look of old city centres. They obviously aren't planning to restore the Odeon to former glories and then charge students to live in the balcony on a strict diet of Toffee Poppets abd cartons of Kia-Ora. Hopefully we'll see some creative thinking rather than more of the defeatism that sees old buildings left to rot until demolition is the only option.
That's a very good point, actually. The internal layout can't possibly remain intact whichever way you look at it.
Another headline scoop from the Mail.
http://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/news/local/residents-unanimously-back-mill-house-masterplan-1-4647881
When 30,000 people signed a petition to save the hopital, the council did nothing.
When serious questions were raised in full council meetings regarding Paul Walkers salary increase, the council did nothing.
When serious questions were raised in full council about the massive Tall Ships overspend, the council did nothing.
When major concerns were raised about Seaton becoming a dumping ground for all sorts of nasty substances, the council did nothing.
When the closing of libraries & other amenities were brought up in council, they did nothing.
So the unanimous support for the Mill House site by 60 pools fans & local residents will probably mean the scheme gets the go ahead.
The likelyhood of any development is i think remote, the area already has several major retail outlets standing empty & likely to remain so for the forseeable future.
With HBC going ahead with the purchase of the Big Tin Shed, any monies available are likely to be directed towards the redevelopment of that site, they have covered all bases in previous statements about possible use for the site... ie. housing, retail, eateries, & most laughably... the Mayor would like to see it as a major concert venue, before it`s redeveloped.
It`s yet "Another Pie in The Sky" diversion from the realities faced by the town in the next few years...
Attended the MHAAG meeting again last night and there was a large number of residents in attendance. yet again very well organised with every question answered to the best of the organisers abilty.
The feeling that came across was that the council had not bothered to talk to the people in the area about the devolepment of the millhouse.
the old lady sat next to me said give the football club the ground they have been in Hartlepool longer than the councillors and have gave more to the town.
i went to the first meeting with an open mind on the ground handover but i'm sure it will benefit the town in the long run.
One member of the meeting voiced his concerns that he hoped the project would not hinge on a personel battle with the mayor and the labour group but surely that is not an issue.
This is all old news being brought upto date meetings were held some four years past showing plans for housing to the rear of Belk street.
Plans to demolish the wet side of Mill house centre, incorporate the Mill House Pub into the complex also the indoor bowls two well attended meetings gave residents hope of immediate regeneration.
Inclusion of this was the Odeon to be converted to flats/housing what happened NOTHING.
Dont get me wrong I'd love to see this go ahead but in reallity Will It? talk is cheap and four years of nothing is hardly progress we'll see what the next four years bring. But dont hold your breath.
Contrast this with the low key way they treated a very recent drugs case. A local man caught in a 1 million pound drugs sting and the local paper ignore/leave out his business connections in Hartlepool.
I have seen bigger headlines over some pathetic Tesco bacon snatcher.
Someone has been bunged to keep it out of the paper.
I don't think the Mail has done the supporters of the ground giveaway any favours by overstating the significance of the Mill House meeting. We have been presented with a front page headline and a following article on page 4 all about how the majority of residents favour the scheme. However, this it not the majority 90,000 residents of the town or even the majority of the 4 or 5 thousands season tickets holders - we're talking about just 60 people. Talk about over-egging the pudding.
It would have been better if the schemes supporters had been allowed the same amount of space to make their case and to talk about their small but growing campaign. I'm afraid, as it was presented, people will struggle to match the headline with the numbers and draw the conclusion that the whole thing has been exagerated.
But isn't that the rub of it all. While there's an obvious case for the site to be redeveloped and this would be a positive thing; there's not much of a case at all for giving the ground away to IOR for free especially when the council has £20m to find over the next 5 years.. I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking that there's no reason why the redevelopment couldn't go ahead without any IOR involvement at all. The redevelopment is simply being used to try and piggy back the giveaway of the ground.
I noticed that Barry Thompson, PHF candidate for Victoria Ward is all for the give away - is this PHF Policy?
PHF members are free to vote whichever way their own judgement takes them. At a guess, I would say that the majority view is that everything should be done to make the redevelopment happen provided the deal makes sense to the majority of people in the town and all parties who gain from the deal contribute in some way.
My own view, for what it is worth, is that IOR have yet to come up with any reason why their ownership of the Freehold of the land should be a prerequisite to the redevelopment going ahead other than a suicidal threat to move the football club elsewhere. Virtually all of the adjacent Marina Development has taken place on Leasehold land including the Retail Parks and Apartments, so they need to come up with a better reason than they have so far to warrant themselves being treated differently.
fair point so why did HVDA need rockhaven at a giveaway price, why did the art college need the Leadbitter buildings and not lease them of the council
I'm not without my own doubts about how the examples you mention came about but even so, you are comparing not-for-profit organisations with a social agenda to a private company which exists to generate a profit - the comparison doesn't quite work.
Perhaps the way forward is some sort of joint company with all parties taking a share and contributing to the development cost one way or another. HBC could put in the land as its contribution and the football club, its plans for the Rink End as its contribution. I don't know - just an idea.
possibly we will find out a bit more after the presentation to councillors tomorrow. thats if any turn up with there not being a free lunch.
Dare say what no6 bus is saying is right about free land and cheap property been handed over to other people or businesses so why the big whoo harr about IOR.
I dont buy the mail anymore but heard someone saying that the council were buying the jacksons landing building why. within 2 years it will be a dump again but owned by the council.
Planning meeting today.
Has anyone any more information on this?
It seems that at the meeting/presentation last night councillors have asked for more financial details and some sort of guarantees about the timetable for the development to go ahead. Looks like this will delay things while people get the information together.
Wonder what this was all about. The company in question is IOR less than two years ago. If this had gone through, would a company be allowed to own two clubs?
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11719_6409314,00.html (http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11719_6409314,00.html)
no mention of IOR which is not a norwegian company. but lets not let facts get in the way of scaremongering ;)
Hartlepool United Football Club's ultimate parent company is Independent Oilfield Rentals IOR Limited, a company incorporated in the British Virgin Islands. The shareholders with a 10% or more interest in Independent Oilfield Rentals IOR Limited are K J Hodcroft (46%) and B G Larsen (10%).
Is this Norwegian enough for you?
Ifølge Sky Sports er tidligere Hartlepool-manager og sportsdirektør, Chris Turner, involvert i forhandlingene.
Turner har tette bånd til bergenseren Berge Gerdt Larsen, som via seskapet IOR (Independent Oilfield Rentals) har vært inne på eiersiden av League One-klubben Hartlepool (http://www.altomfotball.no/element.do?cmd=team&teamId=819&tournamentId=232&seasonId=332) i flere år. Larsen er også styreleder i DNO.
I 2007 meldte Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-441042/The-Screamer--Its-talk-football.html) at Larsen var i samtaler med Sheffield Wednesday om et oppkjøp. Avtalen ble ikke noe av den gangen.
Den 26. august i år skrev The Sheffield Star (http://www.thestar.co.uk/headlines/Fans39--10m-Sheffield-Wednesday.6495491.jp?CommentPage=4&CommentPageLength=10) at Larsen kunne komme til å legge inn bud for å kjøpe Sheffield Wednesday.
Which translates as:
"According to Sky Sports, a former Hartlepool manager and sports director, Chris Turner, is involved in the negotiations. Turner has close ties to bergensian Berge Gerdt Larsen, via his company IOR (Independent Oilfield Rentals) which has been in the ownership of the League One club Hartlepool for several years. Lar**n is also Chairman of DNO. In 2007 the Daily Mail reported that Larsen was in talks with Sheffield Wednesday on an acquisition but no agreement was made at the time. On 26 August 2010,The Sheffield Star wrote that Larsen might have to bid to buy Sheffield Wednesday."
So that's two goes they have had at taking over Wednesday so far. Still, don't let simpe facts get in the way of your fanaticism. Perhaps you could answer the question now; can a company or a person own two football clubs at the same time? If so, if either of these deals had gone through where would that have left Pools exactly?
http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/fans-163-10m-sheffield-wednesday-takeover-bid-read-the-full-interview-1-1834183 (http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/fans-163-10m-sheffield-wednesday-takeover-bid-read-the-full-interview-1-1834183)
http://www.tv2.no/sport/fotball/england/norsk-oljeselskap-vil-kjoepe-sheffield-wednesday-3303135.html (http://www.tv2.no/sport/fotball/england/norsk-oljeselskap-vil-kjoepe-sheffield-wednesday-3303135.html)
The short answer is NO.
http://www.inbrief.co.uk/football-law/dual-ownership-of-football-clubs.htm
marky you really need to actually read the piece.
Turner has close ties to bergensian Berge Gerdt Larsen, via his company IOR (Independent Oilfield Rentals)
factually incorrect, larsen owns 10% of the shares in IOR it is not his company he is a minority shareholder.
Larsen is also Chairman of DNO.
DNO are a shirt sponsor at pools.
so to answer your question if larsen bought sheff weds it would not affect pools other than probably losing a shirt sponsor.
so not so much a fanatic more of a pedant.
too pedantic, I think. so much so that you can't see the Norwegian Spruce for the trees.....or maybe you can but just can't accept it.
so the british virgin isles are in norway in your world, thats fine i just hope you dont work in the travel industry.
i accept you are struggling to grasp that IOR and ken hodcroft did not bid for sheff wednesday, but a chap called Berge Larsen who has 10% of the shares in IOR decided that he wanted to own a football club like his mate ken does, thanks to him knowing chris turner through pools when chris tells him sheff wed are up for sale he shows an interest but when he finds the actual scale of their debt he doesnt bother.
now that wasnt too difficult to understand now was it?
I wouldn't labour the point, No6. Alliance-Boots is registered at a P.O. Box in a Swiss Village; Lloyds Bank (73% owned by the British taxpayer) is registered in the Caymen Islands etc. If all the companies registered in the Virgin Islands actually had their head offices there the islands would probably sink under the weight.
Does it really matter whether IOR is a Norwegian company or not? The question was, what impact would there have been on Pools had the Wednesday aquisition gone ahead and I think it's a valid one.
I know you have suggested that it was only Larsen involved but there's nothing in those links to suggest he wasn't acting for IOR. Can you say with certainty that he wasn't?
I'm only saying that it would be in everyone's interest to know one way or the other because it would be relevant to the present situation and the more information people have the better surely?
Incidentally, the feed back HTH is getting from the presentation is that:
- The Council isn't keen on proceeding without some sort of guarantees of a time frame and that the development would actually go ahead
- People weren't particular impressed with the Gus Robinson guy because he seemed unprepared
- The Plan consisted of several impressive artistic impressions but little else.
- The cost of removing the covenants on the land around the football ground would be significant.
- Although talks about transferring the land, either for free or purchase, may produce a committment to do so there was no interest in actually transferring ownership of the land until building work had actually started.
- The impression given was that there was no idea how the plan would be paid for and that there seemed to be a suggestion that HBC itself should borrow the money. As a result, HBC has asked for more detail on how the scheme would be financed
Not my opinion, just what we're hearing from a few people who were present.
obviously not being involved with the bid i can only read information in the public domain.
now to get to the point of the bid, if it was IOR who were interested in taking over sheff wed i would presume that IOR would be the main focus in the article, and if that was the case surely it would have been Ken Hodcroft who was mentioned, after all he is the biggest shareholder rather than L A R S E N who only has a 10% holding and why would DNO be the company in the article.
the takeover did not happen, how is this pertinent to a redevelopment of the mill house area?.
and to put the norwegian point to bed ,so to speak.
IOR's head office is in aberdeen.
hopefully this will clarify wether or not IOR is norwegian.
Business career
After university, Hodcroft moved to the US for two years and worked for the oil company Phillips Petroleum in Louisiana, Texas, and Bartlesville, Oklahoma. While at Bartlesville he played football for Tulsa Roughnecks and was offered a contract there. However, he rejected it in favour of a career in the oil business.
Shortly afterwards, Hodcroft moved to Norway to continue working for Phillips Petroleum. After 7 years he moved to Aberdeen, Scotland. It was there where he decided to form the oil company IOR after seeing a gap in the market. IOR was based in Aberdeen and is still successfully running today.
All very interesting but not especially relevant.
I see a possible scenario as this. Someone with a lot of money fancies owning a Championship League football club. Pools are a possibility, but it will take time, require a promotion and there are doubts if Hartlepool could financially support through gate receipts a football club in that league. A quicker solution, would be to buy a club who are already in the Champions League in a major city with a population of 555,000 people - over 5 times that of Hartlepool.
You can't really blame the council for being cautious on this one. Over the years they have been sold some pups from developers who have promised all sorts of things but then found some reason for those things not to happen - just look at the Marina.
When the Wilkies bought the Odeon it was going to be turned into an entertainment complex which is how they managed to get planning permission against the ewishes of local residents but instead it became just another drinking place with a late license.
Fool me once, shame on you - Fool me twice, shame on me.
totally understand wanting more information, but is it a case of gauging peoples interest before spending too much money and then being knocked back because a party of councillors want to play grown up politics, and given the parties record of fiascos (last years budget springs to mind) i can understand gus robinsons being cautious as well
I don't think the labour lot are as negative as that e-mail from Akers-Belcher made out. I think he went out on a limb a bit and would have been wiser to consult other members of the flock a bit more. There is a faction of the labour group which seems to oppose the sale of public land as a matter of dogma; unfortunately, they are the ones running the show at the moment.
I think the problem with the Gus Robinson guy was that he struggled to answer many questions and so created the impression things hadn't been thought through too well.
Poor Drummond didn't come out of it too well. A case of damned if he turned up; damned if he didn't. As it happens - he didn't, probably to stop him being accused of being too close to the issue. Even so, he still got slated for going public with his thoughts in The Mail.
It's a sign of things to come, I reckon. Akers-Belcher has his sights on that Leader of the Council role and the executive power and allowance that comes with it so it's going to be a case of all guns aimed at Drummond for some time to come.
sorry can you just help me on that point, at what moment shall we know the attack has started as it has seemed that they have had it in for him since leo never got the job
Quote from: no6bus on June 20, 2012, 04: PM
sorry can you just help me on that point, at what moment shall we know the attack has started as it has seemed that they have had it in for him since leo never got the job
O will spell it out for you.
Labour tried to get their own man in and lost. They did not like it and didn't give Dumbo much support at the start.
Then they found out he was a hollow shell who could be manipulated by massaging his ego.
Once they realised they were pulling the strings the Labour Group stopped attacking the Mayor.
Then the Chimp got to believe he had real power and started making an ar*se of himself by flouting the known Labour line.
End of love affair and the Mayor's support was withdrawn.
He is now nothing but a figurehead with no friends and no political Allies.
The man is barely litterate and inarticulate to boot.
He reflects the group that elected him..............
Quote from: mk1 on June 20, 2012, 05: PM
The man is barely litterate and inarticulate to boot.
That's quite funny, and they say that it takes one to know one.
Or am I mistaken and you've actually got a degree, several post-grad qualifications and a job that pays you a lot more than the national average but you just hide it well?
If he has it's more than the Chimp has..
I think you're right, No6, Labour have always had it in for him but there was a sort of truce as long as he towed the line and flooded the Cabinet with labourites. All that changed when Mad Marge got the upper hand over the Simmons/Brash/Hargreaves crowd and now Mad Marge just hates having to share power with an elected Mayor - she wants it all - even if it's by proxy through the ABs.
It terms of Mill House, the fact that Drummond supports the idea has made him a liability to those who want to see it go ahead. It's a crazy way to run a council, I know, but here we are.
Quote from: mk1 on June 20, 2012, 05: PM
Quote from: no6bus on June 20, 2012, 04: PM
sorry can you just help me on that point, at what moment shall we know the attack has started as it has seemed that they have had it in for him since leo never got the job
O will spell it out for you.
Labour tried to get their own man in and lost. They did not like it and didn't give Dumbo much support at the start.
Then they found out he was a hollow shell who could be manipulated by massaging his ego.
Once they realised they were pulling the strings the Labour Group stopped attacking the Mayor.
Then the Chimp got to believe he had real power and started making an ar*se of himself by flouting the known Labour line.
End of love affair and the Mayor's support was withdrawn.
He is now nothing but a figurehead with no friends and no political Allies.
The man is barely litterate and inarticulate to boot.
He reflects the group that elected him..............
8)
so the electorate of hartlepool are barely literate and inarticulate as it was the majority of voters who elected him unless they have changed the rules of voting ;)
don't tell me you've only just noticed.... ;D
Quote from: Donkey Kong on June 20, 2012, 05: PM
Quote from: mk1 on June 20, 2012, 05: PM
The man is barely litterate and inarticulate to boot.
That's quite funny, and they say that it takes one to know one.
Then you must be his best friend..........
Quote from: Donkey Kong on June 20, 2012, 05: PM
Or am I mistaken and you've actually got a degree, several post-grad qualifications and a job that pays you a lot more than the national average but you just hide it well?
I am at a loss to understand the connection between having a well paid job and intelligence.
I believe you are one of those shallow people who equate 'worth' with 'money'.
Probably one of those bores who constantly talk about the 'new car' and how much your house went up in the last year...........opps sorry, I forgot the bubble has burst on that one!
Quote from: no6bus on June 20, 2012, 06: PM
so the electorate of hartlepool are barely literate and inarticulate as it was the majority of voters who elected him unless they have changed the rules of voting.
Hitler was elected...........
and would have been cheaper ::)
I tend to agree with steveL on this one, drummond has brought it all on him self by sucking up to Labour, the wheels fell of that particular locomotive when Margie Darling got the shout, aided & abetted by her surrogate puppies SAB n CAB.
He is now isolated & emasculated in any real political sense, he will bumble through to the end of his term & effectively take the money & run.
The way drummond has let himself be manipulated is the point the people of Hartlepool should be concerned with, whether or not a referendum takes place on the position of an elected Mayor or not, we should be extremely concerned about who takes "Power" in the near future.
Surely the ground is worth nothing if it was put up for sale tomorrow who would buy it no one as there is nothing that can be done with it in this tighten your belt times.
so why not let IOR have to develop and if that makes the millhouse project happen great.
They can't want it that much if they won't pay for it.
Why not put it up for sale then and see if anybody else will give Hartlepool a better offer for the land.
(There is loads of space at Wynyard that could be used to build a new ground next to Hartlepool Hospital.)
yes lets put it up for sale with the current tenants included as sitting tenants and the area still covered by the current covenants, i am 100% behind this idea. with say a 90 day period for interested parties to make their offers.
then after the 90 days and people realise nobody but the current tenants are interested in owning the ground then our council might just get a sense of reality.
Stuart Drummond, I refuse to call him Dumbo or the Chimp, has done something that no one else has managed, he beat the Labour Party's mayoral candidates not once but three times. For that alone he deserves some respect.
On the subject of the Mill House project we have got to get this right, so lets have consultations until all view points have been explored then make a decision with clearly explained reasons for that decision. I.O.R. are an important part of this project so lets hear what their proposals are. In the meantime they could show good will by doing some tidying up of the approaches to the Mill House side of the ground .
Quote from: mk1 on June 20, 2012, 07: PM
Quote from: Donkey Kong on June 20, 2012, 05: PM
Or am I mistaken and you've actually got a degree, several post-grad qualifications and a job that pays you a lot more than the national average but you just hide it well?
I am at a loss to understand the connection between having a well paid job and intelligence.
I believe you are one of those shallow people who equate 'worth' with 'money'.
Probably one of those bores who constantly talk about the 'new car' and how much your house went up in the last year...........opps sorry, I forgot the bubble has burst on that one!
Ah so you conveniently miss the education part of my point and prefer to speculate on things that I didn't actually say.
I suppose that answers it for me anyway.
Now who should we be calling "Dumbo"?
all of this hoo-haa means nothing to me.
I'm not a football fan particularly beyond watching the odd match on TV but I'm happy that others get some pleasure from watching their local team. I do, howver, pay my council tax albeit through gritted teeth as do 99% of other working residents most of whom, like me, don't watch the local team. I know that the council is in a mess financially and from reading The Mail (and this site) I can see that its going to be running in the red for years to come and will have to cancel services as a result.
What I don't understand is why, especially under these circumstances, any organisation thinks it sensible for the council to give away an asset that has been valued at £620,000 completely free.
I can just about get my head around a scheme that involved IOR financing the Mill House scheme in partnership with Cameron's and the College and in return for doing so the council donated the land - that would be like the council making its own contribution to the scheme. In return, we all get a welcome redevelopment and hopefully geyt rid of the eyesore that is the Odeon. But that's not what is happening is it?
What's happening is that IOR want the land to be handed over completely free as a first step without any guarantees that the scheme will ever go ahead and no clear indication of who would pay for it anyway.
I think IOR and the Pools fans need to be realistic. No one in their right minds would go along with this.
For anybody to give away something for free they need to be given a solid reason to do so and I would think this applies to every Pools fan too. So far no one has come up with that solid reason - only a list of possibilities and maybes.
Never got to the meeting last night but there is a big report in the mail about the project today.
My mother lives in Belk street and that is why i went to the meetings to start with and speaking to her neighbours today they cannot wait for the project to begin and if that means HUFC getting the ground for nothing so be it.
My mother's concern is that this fantastic project will get lost in i'll do whats best for the labour party rather than the town and the voters.
£90m? - what a load of bollocks
Quote from: GXDN on June 21, 2012, 10: AM
all of this hoo-haa means nothing to me.
I'm not a football fan particularly beyond watching the odd match on TV but I'm happy that others get some pleasure from watching their local team. I do, howver, pay my council tax albeit through gritted teeth as do 99% of other working residents most of whom, like me, don't watch the local team. I know that the council is in a mess financially and from reading The Mail (and this site) I can see that its going to be running in the red for years to come and will have to cancel services as a result.
What I don't understand is why, especially under these circumstances, any organisation thinks it sensible for the council to give away an asset that has been valued at £620,000 completely free.
I can just about get my head around a scheme that involved IOR financing the Mill House scheme in partnership with Cameron's and the College and in return for doing so the council donated the land - that would be like the council making its own contribution to the scheme. In return, we all get a welcome redevelopment and hopefully geyt rid of the eyesore that is the Odeon. But that's not what is happening is it?
What's happening is that IOR want the land to be handed over completely free as a first step without any guarantees that the scheme will ever go ahead and no clear indication of who would pay for it anyway.
I think IOR and the Pools fans need to be realistic. No one in their right minds would go along with this.
For anybody to give away something for free they need to be given a solid reason to do so and I would think this applies to every Pools fan too. So far no one has come up with that solid reason - only a list of possibilities and maybes.
and yet no complaints about the councillors giving themselves a pay rise out of your council tax.
where does it say the land must be handed over first, isnt it the case that if the scheme goes ahead pools get the land as PART OF THE SCHEME not just handed over, dont forget this council previously turned down IOR's offer of £300,000 to buy the land, and as we all know the bottom has since dropped out of the property market.
£90m......another Tall Ships figure !
Councillors haven't been awarded a pay rise as yet, they are waiting for the report of the remuneration panel. I'm sure that there will be plenty of people complaining if it ends up that way.
Quote from: no6bus on June 21, 2012, 05: PM
Quote from: GXDN on June 21, 2012, 10: AM
all of this hoo-haa means nothing to me.
I'm not a football fan particularly beyond watching the odd match on TV but I'm happy that others get some pleasure from watching their local team. I do, howver, pay my council tax albeit through gritted teeth as do 99% of other working residents most of whom, like me, don't watch the local team. I know that the council is in a mess financially and from reading The Mail (and this site) I can see that its going to be running in the red for years to come and will have to cancel services as a result.
What I don't understand is why, especially under these circumstances, any organisation thinks it sensible for the council to give away an asset that has been valued at £620,000 completely free.
I can just about get my head around a scheme that involved IOR financing the Mill House scheme in partnership with Cameron's and the College and in return for doing so the council donated the land - that would be like the council making its own contribution to the scheme. In return, we all get a welcome redevelopment and hopefully geyt rid of the eyesore that is the Odeon. But that's not what is happening is it?
What's happening is that IOR want the land to be handed over completely free as a first step without any guarantees that the scheme will ever go ahead and no clear indication of who would pay for it anyway.
I think IOR and the Pools fans need to be realistic. No one in their right minds would go along with this.
For anybody to give away something for free they need to be given a solid reason to do so and I would think this applies to every Pools fan too. So far no one has come up with that solid reason - only a list of possibilities and maybes.
and yet no complaints about the councillors giving themselves a pay rise out of your council tax.
where does it say the land must be handed over first, isnt it the case that if the scheme goes ahead pools get the land as PART OF THE SCHEME not just handed over, dont forget this council previously turned down IOR's offer of £300,000 to buy the land, and as we all know the bottom has since dropped out of the property market.
never knew that the council had rejected 300k in the past now it all becomes clear. it would make the coucillors look pretty stupid to give it away for nothing now.
so it could be a face saving excercise not whats best for hartlepool.
Councillors will get 15-20% pay rise.
Quote from: testicles on June 21, 2012, 10: PM
Councillors will get 15-20% pay rise.
legal robbery!
Theyll all have to work a bit harder now.
they all have to do the job they applied for but decided to rob us of more council tax whilst cutting services and freezing pay, ::)
Has anyone on HTH board been or want to be a councillor no matter what they do they will get pelters.
Meeting Tuesday 3rd July.
The meeting will be held in the centenary lounge at Hartlepool United Football Club at 7-00pm.
There will be a tour of the ground and facility's at 6-15pm for those who wish to see what HUFC offer to the community during the week.
There will be Representatives from Gus Robinson. Cameron's. The colleges and HUFC.
I,m taking my mother to this meeting as she has a question to ask the rep from the art college and college of FE.
One thing that I have noticed from these artist impressions and from posts I've read on here is that there is no apparent provision for a multi-story car park. This to me seems a ridiculous ommission considering the parking along the roads around the ground and on the retail park/ASDA/Morrisons on match days.
Single level car parks are a seriously inefficient use of space when extra buildings could be erected in their place or even a split use building with the lower floors used for parking and the upper floors for other uses. There is also the opportunity to generate income from the parking which would help fund the development given that lack of funding may well stop the development going ahead in the first place.
There is more chance of Nelson getting his eye back than this development happening.
is that really true? Sooner or later the Odeon will have to be dealt with when the council can find the money and the land will probably end up being used for housing. The same goes for the bowls club and the swimming pool - sooner or later they will have to be rebuilt - again when the council can find the money. If they stick a few more trees around the place then than will look not far off this thing that people keep calling 'the plan'. Except it won't involve the council giving away public assets for nowt or next to nowt and it won't help put the family run hotels at Seaton out of business.
it will be the likes of the travelodge that puts the seaton hotels out of business. looking at trip advisor the premier is now hartlepools top hotel.
http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotels-g191274-Hartlepool_County_Durham_England-Hotels.html
The Travelodge will impact on the Seaton Hotels for sure but why not any new additional hotel built at Mill House? The issue is really whether the hotel market is becoming saturated. Premier Inn already think so which is why they are still sitting on a planning application granted for the 'floating' hotel. There are also plans for a Travelodge at A19 Services (which might have already been built) and a hotel at Wynyard Golf Course.
The point being, how sure are we that any hotel on the Mill House would actually be built and if it was built, how sure are we that all it would do is take even more business away from Seaton at a time when the council is trying to upgrade Seaton.
The same could be said for the shops that are supposed to be included in this plan. What demand for additional shops is there in the Mill House area? None I suspect, bearing in mind that the town already has the highest percentage of vacant retail units in the North East.
This is the frustration of this plan; it just hasn't been thought through properly. The artist impression says it all really; very pretty but with nothing solid behind it.
(http://www.hartlepoolpost.co.uk/images/mill%20house%20plan.JPG)
I love these artists impressions, they never show the uprooted trees, burning cars and schoolkids shooting up in the phonebox..
I see a lot of irony in this whole debate.
I'm old enough to remember when the taxman was close to causing the club to be wound up and I also remember the furore of the fans demanding that the council helped the club out by buying the ground. The fans called the councillors worse than muck then because they hesitated before agreeing to do so - now they are doing the same for the opposite reason. All of which tells me that if this plan ever does go ahead it will not be down to the rantings of the pools fans but because of the cooler heads of those more anchored in the reality of how things actually work.
I don't think we should give up on this plan even though, as it stands, it's clearly half-baked, especially on how it would be financed. I'm still not convinced that it is anything more than the decorative wrapping paper covering the real contents which is the giveaway of the ground to IOR.
Even so, there have been some interesting ideas such as the multi-storey car cark which, when you think about it, does seem to be a sensible idea considering the amount of traffic at a home game and an obvious way to raise revenue to help finance the whole scheme.
Also, regarding the demand for retail units - there is none at present. However, sometime soon, that row of shops opposite Belk Street is going to have to go. They are in a really bad location where it's impossible to park and the existing shops will be losing custom because of this - most of them have signs in the window pointing to 'parking at the rear' but does anyone ever park there? These shops also force Raby Road into being seriously narrowed and at the moment there's not much the council can do about it.
If you imagine the Odeon, this row of shops and the streets around Belk Street all gone then the whole area is opened up for redevelopment and the shops themselves could be relocated in a more sensible and safer place with better parking. These buildings will go at some point in the next few years so why not now as part of the Mill House redevelopment? It may help make the plan more viable and therefore more likely to go ahead.
... and eventually we'll end up as Backwater on Sea, a town where the main entertainment is watching the traffic lights change to a constant background hum, once blamed on wind turbines but found to be the whining of the Luddites busy shooting down any and everything that doesn't conform to their world vision of a town that should be going nowhere in particular very slowly .... a town with a 'not for the likes of us' attitude and happy to stagnate as long as the rates are as low as possible but with expectations of the highest standard in a tidy little town with champagne expectations on a lemonade budget ... a Mrs Bucket of towns, happy to pick away at itself in the misbegotten hope it's for the better..... but only undermining the foundations.
However bad it gets, the town will always amount to being more than a football club with a few supporting bits added on.
Why does every point come back to the football club you lot on here are a bunch of moaning mini's. ;)
When I look at that artist impression, all I see is a football ground, a bowls club and swimming pool. a 5-a-side pitch and a few trees. Isn't that what we have now?
Quote from: Riddler5 on June 23, 2012, 11: AM
... and eventually we'll end up as Backwater on Sea, a town where the main entertainment is watching the traffic lights change to a constant background hum, once blamed on wind turbines but found to be the whining of the Luddites busy shooting down any and everything that doesn't conform to their world vision of a town that should be going nowhere in particular very slowly .... a town with a 'not for the likes of us' attitude and happy to stagnate as long as the rates are as low as possible but with expectations of the highest standard in a tidy little town with champagne expectations on a lemonade budget ... a Mrs Bucket of towns, happy to pick away at itself in the misbegotten hope it's for the better..... but only undermining the foundations.
sorry i thought we were already there due to the "VISION" of our previous civic leaders, i give you middleton grange as a example, a bustling town centre of yesteryear eradicated to give us greggsville!
sorry I'm only new here but you seem to insult councillors at every opportunity yet at the same time isn't it obvious what you are wanting isn't going to happen without their support. Can you not see the flaw in this approach?
Unfortunately, it seems that a somewhat nebulous plan (however ambitious and theoretically desirable) stands to fail because too many aren't prepared to honestly address the flaws and work out just what can be done with whatever funds are affordable (and can be justified to all of us who might be expected to foot the bills).
There does seem to be an 'all or nothing' air to this issue; as with previous grandiose schemes, getting the go ahead seems to be viewed as Hartlepool's panacea. Could the project be broken into more manageable and affordable chunks?
I don't hate football; football simply fails to interest me. What does fire me up is that the town is in desperate need of a shake up, but only wants the gold-plated options. I'd love to drive a Jaguar, but real life means that there's a Nissan parked outside...
I don't play bowls so sod the bowls lot.
Quote from: popgoestheweasal. on June 23, 2012, 04: PM
I don't play bowls so sod the bowls lot.
It's so nice to hear from the public spirited within our community... ::)
Quote from: GXDN on June 23, 2012, 02: PM
sorry I'm only new here but you seem to insult councillors at every opportunity yet at the same time isn't it obvious what you are wanting isn't going to happen without their support. Can you not see the flaw in this approach?
it doesnt matter a jot what i or every other person who thinks that this could be a very good scheme for the football supporters, indoor bowlers, leisure centre users and residents of the area the simple fact of the matter is because the mayor backed the plan labour will scupper it without a consideration for what anyone thinks.
but apart from that thank you for pointing out the error of my ways ;)
I've just walked passed Mill House and noticed that at least a couple of dozen teenagers using the BMX/Skateboard facility and seeming to have a great time. It's clearly a well used facility.
Back to the matter at hand, I'm sure you're right about Labour's animosity to anything Drummond at the moment but as it happens, I don't think it will be necessary for Labour to play its spite card this time. As soon as the plan was exposed to daylight it was shown to full of holes. There's nothing there that the Council can't do on its own without any involvement of the football club. Everything seems to depend on HBC being the main providers of finance and so its pretty clear that nothing is going to happen anyway until the council finances allow it. The reality is that, even when grant money is available, much of it depends on match funding from the council itself and it simply doesn't have the money. Perhaps if the football club paid the market value for the ground then HBC would then be willing to use that as seed money to qualify for any available grants.
isnt the market value the issue, the council turned down £300,000 for it and yet give away land at clavering to a housing association, leadbitter buildings to the college of art, rift house recreation ground with a bigger footprint and in a better area for housing than the vic to the 6th form college.
and the relevance of that link to this topic is?
oh jimmy carr can pay for the vic from his tax savings good idea ::)
but surely i would have to have some credibility in order to lose it :o
however had he dragged that sort of comment up from a posting on this board all well and good, if anything i come out of it with more credibility than a poster who has to go on another forum and search through 4192 posts i have made on the bunker still they must be long nights in the haw haw household.
Quote from: perseus on June 23, 2012, 08: PM
Agreed No6. I post on the bunker from time to time, under another name to this one. Sometimes i'm shot down on there, some times i'm applauded. On here though, what you'll have to realise is the minute you start 'winning' the debate, some people (not all, but some) resort to trying to attack your credibility or even they just resort to logging on in fake names pretending to be someone else and post stupid songs. (see other thread on immigration for details).
cheers for the tip so thats where i am going wrong by having the audacity to use a single user name, mmmm it cant be too difficult to reinvent myself on here.
no on second thoughts i'll stick to having the one that i post on everything bar facebook with.
I hate to keep repeating this point but if anyone gets on your t*tts then it is fatal to tell them.
It makes them feel as if they are getting somewhere.
Never defend yourself, always attack. Make your point and do not get bogged down replying to endless minor quibbles.
ok dad ;D
Just about anything you want it to mean and absolutely nothing at the same time. ;)
You're forgetting the part that the little packet of crisps in helping to produce the most obese generation the country has ever known. This leads to additional spending in the NHS and the raising of additional taxes to pay for it, the appointment of a plethora local Obesity Health Coordinators, the production of countless studies, reports and seminars which will conclude that 'over-eating and eating unhealthy items makes people fat'. Then there are the action plans and addition staff to implement them (more taxes).... the 'community schemes' to provide fresh vegetables and fruit to the disadvantaged (during the 16 hours a week that ASDA is actually shut)
Conclusion? Killing our kids threw shoving junk down their throats is good for the country because it increases economic activity.
Were the offending crisps Cheese & Onion flavour by any chance ?
Sound most likely to have been "beefy"!!!
Well you poolies.......... help me out.
The artists impression in the Mail seems to be showing the leisure centre to be at the Asda/Rhuim Terr end. Can this be correct, it there enough room etc? Those who have seen the full plans, what is going up where the existing centre/indoors bowls/pub now is?
Bear this in mind this is my 83 year mother telling me what see saw at the meeting at the millhouse . option 4 is favoured by the developer pub stays put but is revamped. Leisure centre backs onto morrisons with 3 levels wet. dry and bowls club. new stand and hotel on the football ground, houses on the site with a green belt and the odeon will be student accomadition when sorted by HBC.
if i'm wrong correct me.
I've asked this before but I didn't get an answer so I'll ask it again. Will someone tell me what giving away the football ground has to do with rebuilding the bowls club and swimming pool or even the Odeon? It seems to me that the taxpayer is being asked to pay for everything bar rebuilding the pub and if it wanted to do any of the above it could do so anyway if it had the money. What's it got to do with the football club?
People seem to be suggesting that if the council gives the football ground away all of these magical things will happen but the truth is one thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other - the council still has to find all of the money. The whole thing is a con if you ask me.
@GXDN - you're quite correct in stating that these schemes (however admirable) can be detached from one another. It is by no means the 'all or nothing' set up that some believe.
I wonder why Pools are so unpopular on this board.....? ::)
pools, poles, the mayor, councillors, it would be easier to ask what they actually like on the board.
Quote from: Riddler5 on June 25, 2012, 09: PM
I wonder why Pools are so unpopular on this board.....? ::)
Its the arrogant 'we deserve it attitude' and the total contempt for any other group in this myopic attempted land grab.
Instead of paying for their hobby themselves they want 'me' to contribute.
It is nothing to do with Pools but a much wider issue of special interest groups lying and trying to get something for nothing.
Did you see the earlier posts on the Bunker where the more savy members warned the faithful to stop pushing the football aspect and promote on the employment and regeneration side of the plan?
I note in tonights Mail we got another fantasy figure for the scheme. Now it is 53 million into the local economy and 37 million in investment!
The 53 million into the local economy, will that come before or after the free electricity from nuclear power, my free banana from Dumbo or a super new job off the back of the money generated by tall ships or a job working for Able building wind turbines that is going to appear after dismantling the warships ?
The Mill House plan will no doubt happen as sure as the hospital will disappear.
It will be in our best interest and we will pay for it one way or another no matter if this is what we really want or don't want.
Big decisions that affect lots of people are always taken by few people.
well people can you explain to me how the leisure centre is to be fitted in?
Monday's mail shows the area to be re-developed. There is a blanked off area at the Morrisons end that is, presumably in the regeneration area. This, I believe, is actually Morrisons. Do Morrisons know that they are to be redeveloped?
If you look at the artists impression on the same page, you will notice that the leisure centre butts up to Morrisons. I have been down to have a look and there is no way you can fit a leisure centre in, even if it was a one lane swimming pool. Perhaps a swimming pool is not included? Go onto Google maps and check the size of the existing leisure centre, never mind the indoor bowls, and you will see it just cannot be replicated in the position shown on the artists impression. If the impression is not to scale or wrong what use is it except to dupe the people of H'pool?
Of course, I could be wrong and that Morrisons is to be the new leisure centre!
it was just an artist's impression so perhaps the artist was an impressionist.... ;)
Has there never been land given away or given at a very low price before in the town. if the football club land was the first then maybe the council should tread carefully in case they set a president.
but if the council have done it in the past why is it a problem.
What i will say to the forum members is go to the meeting next week and ask your questions like i will be.
MK1 - are you going to the MH Action group meetings in order to voice your concerns - I am thinking of going tonight, I'll buy you a pint if you do
Quote from: BresslawoffoftheBunker on July 03, 2012, 05: PM
MK1 - are you going to the MH Action group meetings in order to voice your concerns - I am thinking of going tonight, I'll buy you a pint if you do
I have no dog in this fight just an opinion.
1948(http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/1843/westhartlepoolariel1948.jpg) (http://img845.imageshack.us/i/westhartlepoolariel1948.jpg/)
1986(http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/1728/westhartlepoolariel1986.jpg) (http://img109.imageshack.us/i/westhartlepoolariel1986.jpg/)
You didnt go then.................
I was there and apart from the lack of a mike it was o/k. bit like the other meeting but it was good to hear the council guy speak.
Starting to see the positives about this project.
I was there, and it was fascinating listening, especially the first bloke !!!!!!
Oxygen theives you pools fans. ;)