The best £500 Ken ever spent.

[notinshadow]

http://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/news/local/hotel-plans-for-victoria-park-1-4551448

[Stig of the Seaton Dump]

could incorporate community and leisure facilities and even a hotel.

Surely that should read 'a hotel and fat chance of anything for the community'

[Donkey Kong]

could incorporate community and leisure facilities and even a hotel.

Surely that should read 'a hotel and fat chance of anything for the community'

What makes you say that?

I haven't read the whole article yet, but are you that cynical about everything and that ignorant about the stuff that HUFC already do in the community that you need to have a snidey dig to try and make yourself sound clever?

[Stig of the Seaton Dump]

Not bothered about sounding clever ...just the past form of everything in this town ...they always add on nice bits to plans that never come to fruition.

[Donkey Kong]

No not to sound clever I wouldn't have thought but he may as well have a dig when the Mayor who got there because of Ken, stayed there with the help of the Pools fans, now rewards them with the ground and land around it free of charge.

Factually incorrect, but when has that ever stopped anything posted on this site.

If you really think that the only reason Drummond was elected and re-elected was because Pools fans voted for him then you don't realise how few regular supporters they have, and how many of those actually live in the town and get to vote.

From reading your stuff on here though you come across as quite intelligent and I don't think that you're daft, so I don't think that you acutally believe that in its entirety.

[Donkey Kong]

Not bothered about sounding clever ...just the past form of everything in this town ...they always add on nice bits to plans that never come to fruition.

The COUNCIL do, yes, I actually agree with you there.  More sh**e comes out of the Civic Centre (usually via The Mail) then has ever been discharged into the North Sea off Seaton Carew.

However this isn't the council that we're talking about really, it's a private company who want to invest in the town.

[Stig of the Seaton Dump]

The value of the footy ground appears a lot less than a little tin shed on the marina.

Is that a coincidence ?

[Donkey Kong]

Ken got him there and I am sure you would agree with that. 
No, I don't as it happens.  Apparently HUFC paid the £500 deposit for him to stand but that is all.  I might agree if you'd said "helped" him to get there but really it was minimal help only as £500 is neither here nor there.

Pools fans Help him stay there, notice I use the word help.  
I can partially agree with that, although I would be absolutely amazed if it was all Pools fans who vote for him.  If their average attendance is about 3,000 home supporters and you applied the typical turnout percentage to that figure you're probably looking at no more than 750 votes even if you (wrongly) assumed that all of those 3,000 were adults (i.e. of voting age) and lived in Hartlepool rather than people travelling in from out of town and 100% of those turning out voted for SD rather than a lot who will vote for the only thing that they know (i.e. "Labour cos me dad did).  So in reality he might have only got between 300-500 votes from Pools fans.

S.D. repays that with the ground and land to Ken and Pools.
As I've said I don't believe that there's anything significant to "repay", coupled with the fact that SD not only doesn't get to make the decision he also doesn't get to even join in the vote then again I can't agree with you.  If it was a decision being made solely by SD then you might have the beginnings of a point but it isn't so you haven't.

[for fawkes sake]

Who was it who described these plans as 'wishy-washy'.
After reading the Mail's write-up and Drummond's utter nonsense, it's perfectly clear that there is nothing here to discuss.
There are no plans; there are only half-baked aspirations, that's all. Everything is still at the 'wouldn't it be good if' . . . stage. Wouldn't it be good if we built a hotel....wouldn't it be good if we built an accommodation block for the College.
There's nothing real here. There are no actual plans and no actual timetable.
All we have is a demand from a private company for the people of Hartlepool to 'give us the ground for free' and maybe we will build something. We don't know what - we don't know when - but give us the ground for nothing anyway.

[no6bus]

Who was it who described these plans as 'wishy-washy'.
After reading the Mail's write-up and Drummond's utter nonsense, it's perfectly clear that there is nothing here to discuss.
There are no plans; there are only half-baked aspirations, that's all. Everything is still at the 'wouldn't it be good if' . . . stage. Wouldn't it be good if we built a hotel....wouldn't it be good if we built an accommodation block for the College.
There's nothing real here. There are no actual plans and no actual timetable.
All we have is a demand from a private company for the people of Hartlepool to 'give us the ground for free' and maybe we will build something. We don't know what - we don't know when - but give us the ground for nothing anyway.

i dont remember seeing that statement anywhere unless you just made it up of course

[dangerman]

Come on now you surely don't believe all this hype? Look at the plans for Victoria Harbour 'sunk' the bridge from the Headland to the Marina ' pie in the sky' also my memory is that this was all discussed some years past 2008 meetings held in the Mill House centre local residents invited.

Plans for the Odeon to be demolished/converted for retail units & appartments/new build. again Nothing.

I think if memory again is correct Odeon is still there now a breeding ground for pigeons & rats. incidently Odeon & 'Longscar' owned by same people.

Houses to be built to the rear of Belk Street on to Clarence road. Mill House Pub & Indoor Bowls to be in the New Build Mill House demolishing the wet side retaining the dry side. full consultation with Hatlepool United who were going to start almost immediate developing the former Tipps into purpose built sport facilities for the town youngsters..What did they do? they extended the car park and fenced it off.

All schemes presented to give the impression that we've a council and mayor that are on the ball. A blind man can see what is happening here but there are those who will not see, even if it's right in their face.

Wait a few more months and he 'mayor' can be shown the red card and sent off. For Good.

[no6bus]

A few years ago Helle Thorning-Schmidt became the first female Prime Minister of Denmark.
In a speech to the Danish parliament, shortly before an important vote, she said "This is not an election where we hand out gifts. It is an election where we ask everyone to contribute more".

And so to the ongoing debate about the 'Millhouse Master Plan'.

Having observed from a distance the 'battle' between members of the 'Poolie Bunker' and this one, it's clear that a consensus which appeases both sides is unlikely to be reached.
On one hand we have the political view that giving away an essentially 'public owned asset' is just plain wrong, counter balanced by the notion that giving it to IOR is richly deserved.

The value of the land and stadium also cannot be agreed on, with estimates falling anywhere between £600,000 and £6 Million depending on the potential 'buyer' and their intended use for the space.

It's also unclear as to whether the initial purchase of the ground by HBC for £10,000 back in the dark days was essentially a gesture of goodwill that now should be handed back, or an astute financial purchase which should now be 'cashed in'.

One might also argue that taking the financial burden of maintaining the area around the ground out of HBC's hands could be a good thing, as it frees up revenue which could be used to improve other areas of the town.

It could also be muted though, that this proposal has been put forward by essentially 3 people (at least one of whom has a perceived vested interest) in a town of 90,000.

In short (well, 7 paragraphs) people in the two respective camps will not agree on this issue.

However, to come to my point (finally) I think there is one thing that both sides should be agreed upon, that being the motives of HBC and S.D for seemingly pushing this decision through.

A scheme like this, a few weeks after an election, as a few absolute political novices take their seats in the council, is without doubt SD's last throw of the dice before the Labour group close ranks and ousts him via the removal of the elected Mayor role.

Today we read in The Mail what is possible the worst piece of propaganda since Muhammad Saeed Al-Sahhaf (comical Ali) claimed Iraq were winning the war, as U.S tanks literally tore down statues of Sadam on camera behing him.

A hotel? college accomodation? bars? restaurants? shops? houses? re-development of the leisure centre, the odeon? Why not go the whole hog and claim that IOR will build us a free hospital, put on buses all around the town free of charge, sort out Baden Street and dole out free washing machines to anyone from Owton Manor? 

SD knows he's on borrowed time and this may well be his last chance to do something that ensures he gains some kind of position or other back in his former employers fold should he ultimately lose his Mayoral role.

Back in ancient Greece a gift was offered up to the everyday people living their lives within a town. Concealed inside the 'gift' were 32 men who, once the gift had been accepted, took over the town and gained control of everything of value in and around the area in question.

There aren't 32 men hidden inside Victoria Park, but there are 33 people who make up Hartlepool Borough Council.

The Pool's fans may well get their 'gift', but what then? Which men gain control of the wider prizes attached to the deal?

I for one will be watching the voting on this issue with interest. Which way will the Tories vote on the give away of a commercial asset? What wil the Labour lot do? Chase the votes and grant SD his escape route? or look to keep hold of a council asset for when he's eventually gone? and then of course there's Hartlepool First, big opponents of the sale prior to the elections, but what now given they're safe for 2-4 years?

Interesting time ahead for G.L and his 3 muskateers. This for me is his first real test. Does he pander to an electorate that right now at least he doesn't need? or does he publicly oppose the giveaway?

I know it's not quite a gift at the gates of Troy we're debating here, but there's certainly parallels...

"Two little boys had two little toys, each had a _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _".

you seem to be under the impression the council are discussing giving IOR all the land round the vic and it is IOR who are going to develop the area or simply bending the truth to try to get your point accross. the land behind the club car park towards the old filling station site and the stretch alongside the mill house which is currently a pothole filled road are the land i believe is being mooted to be included with the ground and the rest of the area in the proposal is to stay with the council but be developed.
but if we are all happy to keep this whole area as it is now then lets make sure nobody has the temerity to plan any improvements and if they do lets make sure they never happen

[no6bus]

no i didnt forget i was merely trying to clarify a couple of points as the concept of the council handing over the vic to IOR seems to be getting lost in the whole redevelopment debate.
the council bought the ground from pools for £10,000 have received rent from the football club which at the moment is £18,000 p.a. BUT being tenants should have the property maintained by the landlord this has not happened.
now the football club have to have a ground that meets safety standards in order to get a safety certificate each year the cost of said work has been met by the tenant and will have cost more than the figure being bandied about £650,000 over the years IOR have owned the club, the cyril knowles stand and the work to the town end would have cost more than that even with grants. so although it is being looked upon as though the council are merely giving away the ground, part of the scheme involves IOR commiting to spend even more money on the ground, once again something the landlord should be doing.
if you rented a council house would you extend it at your cost.?

[Donkey Kong]

On one hand we have the political view that giving away an essentially 'public owned asset' is just plain wrong, counter balanced by the notion that giving it to IOR is richly deserved.

The value of the land and stadium also cannot be agreed on, with estimates falling anywhere between £600,000 and £6 Million depending on the potential 'buyer' and their intended use for the space.

It could also be muted though, that this proposal has been put forward by essentially 3 people (at least one of whom has a perceived vested interest) in a town of 90,000.

A hotel? college accomodation? bars? restaurants? shops? houses? re-development of the leisure centre, the odeon? Why not go the whole hog and claim that IOR will build us a free hospital, put on buses all around the town free of charge, sort out Baden Street and dole out free washing machines to anyone from Owton Manor? 

SD knows he's on borrowed time and this may well be his last chance to do something that ensures he gains some kind of position or other back in his former employers fold should he ultimately lose his Mayoral role.

Just a couple of points Perseus from your long winded but unfortunately ill-informed rant there.

1.  Giving away or receiving a six figure sum for?  Do you know which it is?

2.  I've heard some ludicrous figures regarding the value of the land bandied about but £6m?  You're either having a laugh or picking a hugely inflated figure for impact value.

3.  It'd be interesting if you could clarify who these three people are and which of them have a vested interest.

4.  You appear to be under the misapprehension that the whole proposed scheme is to be developed by IOR / HUFC.  It isn't.  It is only the actual football ground and a little bit of the adjoining land which is proposed to be transferred to HUFC, the rest of the development would be by others including HBC.

5.  If SD is on "borrowed time" is a separate discussion, but by being excluded from the voting process how exactly is he doing something directly for HUFC rather than looking at the bigger picture regarding development of a currently rundown area of the town and trying to improve it.  If this plan had been put forward excluding the football ground (i.e. just all of the other bits) and therefore involving larger amounts of council money how many people on here would change their view and think that this was a good idea to try and improve that area of the town?

Answers on a postcard rather than a full page waffle would be greatly appreciated.

[The Great Dictator]

As building land it would be worth about £2m.