Funny how people now just seem sullenly resigned to the fact we've lost our A&E, the One Life sat there like the cuckoo in the nest, the town a poorer place for it's loss. Funnier still that no one paid the price politically
I would argue that a 26% turnout is the price that has been paid. If 33,000 people can sign a petition objecting to the loss of services and then find themselves completely ignored, I think it's understandable that so many see little point in voting at all.
I for 1 are very unhappy that my ward councillors kept their seats following the loss of A&E and the busses. They didn't get my vote.
It is a pity people don't get to vote for policies rather than people or parties, it might have made a difference then.
There are two things that would make a difference.
1) Make sure Schools teach politics with no bias to one party or another from the age of 8 years old and then give the vote to 16 year olds in a system where everyone eligible to vote must either register a postal vote or attend a polling station or face a £500 fine for shirking their responsibility.
or
2) Nobody at all turns out to vote in general and local elections forcing a re-think of the whole democratic process.
If they all have to vote we might not like the result but at least they'd have to think about it and Jeremy Kyle could be replaced by a fruitier question time.
Would making everybody attend the poling station mean that they had to vote?
Why wouldn't there be the potential option of registering as attended but not casting a vote? Obviously most people would feel that they might as well vote when they got there but if somebody particularly didn't want to then they would still have the option of not doing so.
I believe it ought to be mandatory to vote, as once you are at the polling station, I believe most people would register a vote...the majority just can't be bothered to get off their backsides! :(
However, on the form there should be a space for 'NONE OF THE ABOVE'.
That would indicate, certainly in the case of Hartlepool, that there is a overwhelming dislike/disgust/distrust of the candidates. >:(
If that is the case, and a town polls more than (say) 70% 'NONE OF THE ABOVE', then there ought to be a govt. department to look into the performance of that town.
I would hazard a guess that there aren't many towns with such a poor turnout as Hartlepool.
The reason in our case is we have such a poor calibre of Cllr. (No, not all of them but most...in my opinion).
Then the poor (and questionable) decisions like the Tall Ships, the interchange, the hospital, the chief execs salary hike, officers on more salary than the Prime Minister etc. etc. would be exposed for what they are...a bloody disgrace! >:(
Cue:
'I fought and died to give you the freedom of choice now you will bloody well vote or you will go to jail'
The right to vote must also include the right not to vote .... people are given the choice, if they choose not to vote, they lose the right to complain at the outcome of their non participation.
I've found over the years that those who do not vote almost always shout the most, complain the most, and yet when asked why they did not vote always answer.. Waste of Time.
One councillor long departed this life used to have a list of absent voters for his ward, if someone who was on this list phoned wanting/demanding an issue be dealt with, he would put the phone down on them, saying if you can't be bothered to vote for me then why should I bother.
A good way of dealing with non voters... 'well maybe'
Considering the world we live in, where people get fined for things like not registering their car as off road, not returning a tax form when they owe nothing
then making people vote (even for none of the above) is not that much of a hardship.
MK1; true to form.
Why don't you actually READ what is written, instead of sniping? ::)
I didn't mention 'jail'...what I actually proposed was a RIGHT NOT TO VOTE, by appending your name next to 'NONE OF THE ABOVE'.
Which is an attempt to highlight the deficiencies in local Govt.
But hey, carry on.......... whatever.
Sorry, what I was meaning was, people stuck to their Labour vote when the indication was people were unhappy with the way the town was/is being run. It doesn't add up. What I think would have made a difference If the councillors were labelled by policy not party.
Quote from: Stig of the Seaton Dump on May 22, 2012, 11: PM
Sorry, what I was meaning was, people stuck to their Labour vote when the indication was people were unhappy with the way the town was/is being run. It doesn't add up. What I think would have made a difference If the councillors were labelled by policy not party.
The Labour party are masters at the art of falling over without hurting themselves. Whatever happens, they simply blame the Tories and their average supporter Mr and Mrs Dim nod along and reinforce their own ingrained political prejudices. The Labour Party could introduce almost any policy it liked and the followers would carry on voting them in.
As for seperating the policy from party, they can't, .... and that's they problem .... to paraphrase something, the originator escapes me, .....
YOUR NOT ELECTED TO THINK, AN OBEDIENT COUNCILLOR IS A RESELECTED COUNCILLOR, NOW SHUT UP AND GET INTO LINE.
"I for 1 are very unhappy that my ward councillors kept their seats following the loss of A&E"
Councillors are completely toothless when it comes to strategic (national) decisions on major NHS projects.
Moving the A&E is part of a national initiative to create regional Major Trauma Centres - councillors are there to vote on public toilet provision (locally) - not on the big stuff. You cannot blame them for this in any way.
They have no say and make no difference.
p.s. Still no public toilets in our (jewel in the crown) marina area. Get yer fingers oot!
"what I actually proposed was a RIGHT NOT TO VOTE, by appending your name next to 'NONE OF THE ABOVE'."
Be careful of the 'NONE OF THE ABOVE' the last time we had that option we got a monkey voted as mayor!
Quote from: kipperdip on May 22, 2012, 08: PM
2) Benefitcheat- be very careful in what you wish for. Teaching politics at school? - are you sure you mean this?
At present there is ample evidence that children at school are already being polticised IN ONE DIRECTION ONLY.
Multiculturalism, Respect for all religions with the exception of Christianity, EU brainwashing, climate change brainwashing etc. A distinct left wing bias in all things is currently being hammered into kids. Are you sure you want to sanction this practice which is more in keeping with authoritarian regimes than in a democratic country.
Never forget - it is the function of education to teach children HOW to think, not WHAT to think.
Also consider that the people who allow this manipulation of young minds are the same people who are pushing for votes at 16.
IM SURE YOU CAN SEE THE CONNECTION.
I'm pretty sure you have a UKIP hat (Though I apologise if I'm wrong) so I'll take what you said with a pinch of salt. I agree that some of the things that happen in education and to be honest in the UK are far too left wing, tolerance of everything that isn't the domain of the white middle/working class and a general unwillingness to tackle extremism.
I didn't say much on the topic as I haven't give it much thought, but I know from speaking to the children of friends and relatives and younger colleagues that they have en-masse no idea how the political system (local or national works) and have no understanding of how their actions could force change if they placed a concerted effort behind one view point over a sustained period of time. Even those who do have a crack at voting for change once but when it doesn't work they give up voting or just follow the herd next time.
It wouldn't be easy to provide a balanced education on the parties and view points, but I think more effort needs to be made to make people understand why voting is important and what their options are if they choose to vote. I do take your point about people shaping young minds but with enough responsible people behind it improved awareness can't be a bad thing.
Perhaps an entirely neutral (Swiss?) body could be set up to translate the key messages of all sides in an election into language that wasn't emotive, disparaging or extreme in nature. The only trouble being that the body would need to be funded by a rich philanthropist with no axe to grind or the govt. In fact I think I've just described what a good media outlet's mission would be.
'do you therefore conclude that supporting UKIP and deploring the brainwashing of our kids to be 'at odds'?'
Not at all I just don't quite see the level of bias you refer to in education is any higher than the bias of the mainstream media.
I too deplore brainwashing I just think that as we are stuck with the EU status quo until the collapse of the single currency pans out that people should be made aware of what is going on. And I also agree that those who are the biggest advocates of lower voting ages are just to left of Gahndi in their politics, some of the most active brainwashing in poor areas is being undertaken by the BNP who are preying on the undereducated.
The left aren't all bad, and just like even the most extreme right have some valid arguments.
I'm not supposing things would be easy, but in my little utopian world everyone would understand how the democratic system should operate, and be armed with enough information from every side before forming their own views.
Quote from: Greg X on May 23, 2012, 08: AM
"I for 1 are very unhappy that my ward councillors kept their seats following the loss of A&E"
Councillors are completely toothless when it comes to strategic (national) decisions on major NHS projects.
Moving the A&E is part of a national initiative to create regional Major Trauma Centres - councillors are there to vote on public toilet provision (locally) - not on the big stuff. You cannot blame them for this in any way.
They have no say and make no difference.
p.s. Still no public toilets in our (jewel in the crown) marina area. Get yer fingers oot!
What...? Councillors may well be toothless gum bangers, but in this case fighting tooth and nail in even a no win battle would have won them some respect instead of what we got. Are you a councillor...?
Quote from: perseus on May 23, 2012, 04: PM
Would you not agree though Mr KD that part of the problem with schools failure to address political literacy is down to the national curriculum and/or the marketization of education, which puts an awful lot of pressure on schools to simply churn out results?
Unfortunately, far too many schools in the U.K. seem to be struggling to teach basic literacy - never mind the political variety...
Quote from: Lucy Lass-Tick on May 23, 2012, 05: PM
Quote from: perseus on May 23, 2012, 04: PM
Would you not agree though Mr KD that part of the problem with schools failure to address political literacy is down to the national curriculum and/or the marketization of education, which puts an awful lot of pressure on schools to simply churn out results?
Unfortunately, far too many schools in the U.K. seem to be struggling to teach basic literacy - never mind the political variety...
That's mainly because schools have failed for so long we have a nation of parents and grandparents who can barely read a road sign and wouldn't ever dream of inviting books into their homes. Some people even think that most popular books are based on films and not the other way round.
You can't lay the blame for everything at the door of the schools, especially when we have a growing culture that says you don't need to try because money is free anyway.
Quite right Benefitcheat...we (unfortunately) now appear to have a culture where the value of literacy is not recognised by far too many and where the veneration of cheap 'celebrities' reigns supreme. Both parents and schools must play their part in guiding and training the next generation. It is, unfortunately, not exactly new for there to be clashes of opinion regarding what is to be prioritised and how teaching and learning should take place, as educational theories change all the time.
As a trainee primary teacher in the mid 1970s I remember my education tutor wanting me to scrap a class of 7 year olds' reading scheme for the 8 week duration of my teaching practice. Fortunately for the children's continuity of learning, the head countermanded this disruption of the basics, considering it's planned replacement (creating a life size African hut in the corner of an already crowded classroom) to be a little unwise!
What I am suggesting as that schools have enough problems, without adding political literacy to their remit - the following blog from the Guardian is both enlightening and frightening...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/teacher-network/teacher-blog/2012/may/19/secret-teacher-letter-home
Quote from: Lucy Lass-Tick on May 23, 2012, 06: PM
we (unfortunately) now appear to have a culture where the value of literacy is not recognised by far too many and where the veneration of cheap 'celebrities' reigns supreme.
Facebook, email, text messaging and twitter seem to take pride of place in my list of culprits for allowing this to grow unchecked.
So many people can't understand why social networking comments, posted next to a photograph of themselves reflect on them as a person. The social networking malaise spreads so quickly they think it's acceptable to spell poorly in school, when applying for jobs and when contacting schools about their own children.
In my work I receive a lot of unsolicited job applications, some of which are well written and thought out, some are just behind Yosser Hughes attempts at an application. The key difference being that Yosser got of his backside and would have put a tie on for an interview, I'm the kind of man who hates wearing a suit but if I turned up for a job interview for a cleaner at McDonalds I'd still put a tie on.
Anyway what was this thread about?
He sounds Jamaican.
What...? Councillors may well be toothless gum bangers, but in this case fighting tooth and nail in even a no win battle would have won them some respect instead of what we got. Are you a councillor...?
No. A realist. Why spend time fighting a lost cause when one's energy could be spent doing something useful.
Quote from: Greg X on May 23, 2012, 07: PM
Why spend time fighting a lost cause when one's energy could be spent doing something useful.
Like getting a respray to match the new wheels?
To Perseus...Being a bit older than most and not using text speak etc. I am quite able to decipher the various messages/examples you posted but could you/would you please explain why it is necessary for youngsters to corrupt a perfectly viable language when it is probably easier to learn the original than adulterate it in this way? Surely if the slang is encouraged for ease the true language will be lost.What will we be left with?
Perseus - I have trouble enough making sense of half of what you say without you starting to jumble the letters up. ;)
To Perseus.... point taken ,"Methinks",in particular,thanks for your reply. Do you ever travel on buses in the area.? Not only are the youngsters electronically sending correspondence like this but they actually convert it into speech.Young girls in particular are becoming very loud and gutteral and sometimes sound eastern European to my ears. Not being nosey but the volume prevents one from overhearing. Glad to get off sometimes.!!!
"It'll be interesting to see where the English language is in 20 years time. "
Take a holiday in the USA this summer and you will hear our future.
There is a 'Parking LOT' for rent next to Drive Vauxhall - next to McDonalds, where everyone under 25 asks, "Can I get a large BigMac meal."
Have a nice day!
One thing I have noticed is the habit of raising the pitch at the end of every spoken sentence which I think started when 'Neighbours' was popular.
Quote from: perseus on May 23, 2012, 08: PM
I don't think it's fair to say schools have failed for so long. The schools round these parts are doing better than they have done for several generations (some of them at least), more students staying on into college, bigger proportion of students getting places at decent universities. Also, I read in the Northern Echo a while back that said more students had got in to Oxbridge colleges in the last 3 years across Hartlepool than in the previous 15 years combined? Something like that. Easy target though schools, the problem round here is 'kids' having kids... cycle of welfare dependancy that's practically impossible to break, that's caused by bad parenting, not bad schooling.
Reflecting on it you're probably right it isn't failing schools or teachers, but there are deficiencies in the system that allow failure to continue mainly in young people from certain areas and with poorly skilled parents who don't see the point in it.
Welfare dependency and the liberal culture that seems to sideline personal responsibility are probably two of the things that have been left to grow at an alarming rate and if this country ever needs to go as far as Greece with its austerity measures many people will be so ill equipped to deal with a world where you are responsible for yourself that law and order will collapse as it will be the only way these folk can make any form of living.
. . . and rotten parenting too. The idea that you look after kids is by showering them with TVs, DVDs, Games Consoles so that they sit in their bedrooms all night leaving lazy parents in peace to watch Eastenders has produced a generation of disconnected kids with poor general knowledge; a fair portion of whom are semi-literate.
That said, you do wonder how any child can go through an 11 year education system and still come out of it unable to add up or read and write to a decent standard. Not true of all kids, of course, or even a majority, but the question I'm asking is how does it happen at all?